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PostPosted: Sat 13 Nov 2021 11:09 am 
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Hi Labhrás,
you helped someone recently with an Ogham transliteration of their name and gave them an Archaic Irish version.
Could you help me with the name Ó Céin and Ó Catháin? I can't seem to find any resource that has these names.
I thought Céin being the genitive of Cian may render something like Avvi Cian/Cen and Catháin would either be
Avvi Cathan or the derivative many people believe is from "cath". I'm not sure about which is correct nor
am I sure about how the genitive works. I also understand that some Ogham inscriptions were written incorrectly
so anything close would be alright.
I really appreciate your help.
Thanks,
Tim


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PostPosted: Sat 13 Nov 2021 12:15 pm 
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Ó Catháin derives from a name beginning in cath- (katu-, often kattu-) and a unknown second part, shortened as a nickname with the diminutive ending -án (-agnos): Katuagnos (or Kattuagnos, prob. Kat(t)agnos), genitive Katuagni.
So, I'd think it could be AVIOS KATUAGNI (though perhaps rather the unknown full two-part katu-name instead of the pet name would have been used: Katugusti, Katuviri, Katurigi, etc.)

Ó Céin, Cian = Kēnos, so: AVIOS KENI

AVI, AVVI in ogham is genitive case. In all ogham inscriptions this genitive is used (because most names are in genitive case), but the nominative would had been AVIOS (or later perhaps avias, aviah -> aue -> úa -> ó).


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov 2021 3:13 am 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
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Labhrás wrote:
Ó Catháin derives from a name beginning in cath- (katu-, often kattu-) and a unknown second part, shortened as a nickname with the diminutive ending -án (-agnos): Katuagnos (or Kattuagnos, prob. Kat(t)agnos), genitive Katuagni.
So, I'd think it could be AVIOS KATUAGNI (though perhaps rather the unknown full two-part katu-name instead of the pet name would have been used: Katugusti, Katuviri, Katurigi, etc.)

Ó Céin, Cian = Kēnos, so: AVIOS KENI

AVI, AVVI in ogham is genitive case. In all ogham inscriptions this genitive is used (because most names are in genitive case), but the nominative would had been AVIOS (or later perhaps avias, aviah -> aue -> úa -> ó).


Thank you so much for this. So an inscription with AVVI KAT(T)UAGNI or KENI (depending on which I choose) wouldn't be far off the mark?

Are Ogham inscriptions in the genitive because the inscriber wants to say the stone belongs to that person? For example, "son of Cathán's". Also, it's interesting to imagine that the AGNI could have become "AIN". In other words, the "n" became palatalised or "slender". What are your thoughts on this?

And where do you get your information for this? I can't find anything online at all and the books I have for "Old Irish" of course, don't have anything. By the way, I may be getting rid of some of my books on the language if you are interested. Send me a pm and I can give you a list.

Cheers,

Tim


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov 2021 12:26 pm 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
Ó Catháin derives from a name beginning in cath- (katu-, often kattu-) and a unknown second part, shortened as a nickname with the diminutive ending -án (-agnos): Katuagnos (or Kattuagnos, prob. Kat(t)agnos), genitive Katuagni.
So, I'd think it could be AVIOS KATUAGNI (though perhaps rather the unknown full two-part katu-name instead of the pet name would have been used: Katugusti, Katuviri, Katurigi, etc.)

Ó Céin, Cian = Kēnos, so: AVIOS KENI

AVI, AVVI in ogham is genitive case. In all ogham inscriptions this genitive is used (because most names are in genitive case), but the nominative would had been AVIOS (or later perhaps avias, aviah -> aue -> úa -> ó).


Thank you so much for this. So an inscription with AVVI KAT(T)UAGNI or KENI (depending on which I choose) wouldn't be far off the mark?


No, they probably would not.

Quote:
Are Ogham inscriptions in the genitive because the inscriber wants to say the stone belongs to that person? For example, "son of Cathán's". Also, it's interesting to imagine that the AGNI could have become "AIN". In other words, the "n" became palatalised or "slender". What are your thoughts on this?


Yes, most of them are gravestones.
Of course, -n- in -agni became (or was already) slender. The genitive suffix -i was the main reason for slenderizing in Modern Irish declensions (fear - fir (< wiri), mac - mic (< maqqi), Cathán - Catháin).

Quote:
And where do you get your information for this? I can't find anything online at all and the books I have for "Old Irish" of course, don't have anything. By the way, I may be getting rid of some of my books on the language if you are interested. Send me a pm and I can give you a list.


There’s Sabine Ziegler’s "Die Sprache der altirischen Ogam-Inschriften"
https://digi20.digitale-sammlungen.de/d ... 00140.html
J.Vendryes’ "Lexique étymologique de l'Irlandais Ancien."
A. Holder’s "Alt-celtischer Sprachschatz" https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/v ... ge=162,163 (page for "avios")
A. Ward’s "A Checklist of Proto-Celtic Lexical Items"
etc.


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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov 2021 2:57 am 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
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Labhrás, thank you so much! I really appreciate you help.

Tim


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