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 Post subject: Fostadh
PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun 2021 11:08 am 
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I'm looking at Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha's translation, Beatha Wolfe Tone, ChIII.
Quote:
Dheineas áit chun cónaithe d’fhostadh ansan i Sráid Chlarendon

Fostadh is mainly listed in dictionaries as hiring (a person or a car). Is it right to use it for renting accommodation? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun 2021 1:27 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
I'm looking at Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha's translation, Beatha Wolfe Tone, ChIII.
Quote:
Dheineas áit chun cónaithe d’fhostadh ansan i Sráid Chlarendon

Fostadh is mainly listed in dictionaries as hiring (a person or a car). Is it right to use it for renting accommodation? Thanks.


I'd think he had an employment (fostú / fostadh) there and made a place to live nearby.


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Tue 22 Jun 2021 1:59 pm 
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Thank you Labhrás for your reply. I understand you as meaning fostadh/fostú shouldn't be used for renting properties.

But in this translation, Ó Siochfhradha makes many, many mistakes. The English here is "I now took lodgings in Clarendon Street", and so he was not taking employment nearby. PÓS means fostadh to mean "rent".

As I have come across neither fostadh nor fostú in Muskerry Irish, I just wanted to check it wasn't a recognised way of saying "rent lodgings".

The d' in older Munster Irish corresponds to "a" (the particle governing the verbal noun). So áit d'fhostadh = áit a fhostú.


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Wed 23 Jun 2021 4:55 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Thank you Labhrás for your reply. I understand you as meaning fostadh/fostú shouldn't be used for renting properties.

But in this translation, Ó Siochfhradha makes many, many mistakes. The English here is "I now took lodgings in Clarendon Street", and so he was not taking employment nearby. PÓS means fostadh to mean "rent".

As I have come across neither fostadh nor fostú in Muskerry Irish, I just wanted to check it wasn't a recognised way of saying "rent lodgings".

The d' in older Munster Irish corresponds to "a" (the particle governing the verbal noun). So áit d'fhostadh = áit a fhostú.


Yes, that makes more sense.

I can't say anything about the usage of fostaigh.
All dictionaries give "hire", none of them "rent".


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Thu 24 Jun 2021 6:07 pm 
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I'm enjoying this book, which is a translation into Munster Irish of Wolf Tone's diairies, but the constant howlers are a disappointment. Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha was brought up in an area where there were native speakers, but I don't think he was a 100% native, as this book shows. The spelling in the book is beautiful, however, all in the old spelling, albeit with the Roman font.

This is from just 2 pages of the book (pp21-22)

1. Fostadh- covered.

2. The Bar Club (a club for barristers). He writes An Barra Chumann, but Cumann an Bharra is the correct term.

3. Nú peocu b’é mo dhán a bhí dhá stiúradh, ní fheadar-sa, ach so, gur gheárr dom gur éiríos breóite tuirseach den dlí.
I've slightly adjusted some spellings, but the point here is that gur gheárr dom go is not right. It should be gur gheárr go....

4. Ó thárla ná raibh maoin ná mian agam chun comaoine chur ar na hatúrnaethe uaisle ná chun deochanna do fhreastal dóibh.
Here PÓS uses freastal incorrectly in what seems to be Béarlachas. I think it should be deochanna do riaradh orthu.

5. Truailliú ar a ngalántacht go gcaithfidh an chuid is uaisle aigne den ghairm d’fhulag.
Here we read go gcaithfidh, where a chaithfidh (direct relative) is needed.

6. Thuigeas gurbh é mo dhualgas, agus dob é go dearfa mo mhian é, mo chúnamh a thabhairt leis.
Should be mo chúnamh a thabhairt do.

7. Do bhí san tuíllte thar bárr aige fiú mar chuaigh sé chun dua agus chun costais lem oiliúint-se.
I can't find attestation in Munster Irish of dul chun dua or dul chun costais, and suspect Béarlachas. Chuir sé dua agus costas air féin would be better.

8. An dá thigh deiridh.
He doesn't give lenition on deiridh, but after the dual it should be there.

9. Cnuc a' tSamhraidh.
He gives "Summerhill, Dublin" as this, but it should be Cnuc Críonáin.

10. Bhí sé d’ádh air go bhfuair sé beart fén bPaving Board.
I think d'ádh requires a verbal noun after it. And beart for a post or position isn't very good either (from the English "berth"?): bhí sé d'ádh air post sa Paving Board a dh'fháil. I'm not sure about the , and don't think it right.

11. Do bhí mo dhroch-mheas don dlí ag méadú ó ló go ló agus níor lú-de é toisc ná raibh ag éirí liom féin inti
Níor lú-de é - can it be followed by toisc in this way? I think it better as níor lú-de é ná raibh ag éirí liom féin inti, without toisc.

12. Ní raibh sé riamh den ancheart ionam a chur i leith an tsaeil mhóir nár thuigeadar mo thairbhe.
I don't think den ancheart is right. Such phrases don't have the article. It should be: ní raibh sé d'ancheart ionam. Mo thairbhe seems odd - the English is "they didn't understand my merit (= my good qualities)". I think nár thuigeader fiúntas a bhí ionam better.

13. Ó thárla gur scríbh beirt nú triúr dem cháirde paimpléidí gur éirigh leó, bheartaíos ar cheann do scrí’ me féin.
Me féin? Because we have the synthetic conjugation, it has to be bheartaíos féin, with no me in there.

14. Bhí an preas iomlán de ghearánta ’na gcoinnibh.
Should be lán, not iomlán.

15. Ó thárla mar a bhí.
I'm not sure about this one. It means "since that is how it was", and I think Ó thárla gurb in mar a bhí would be better.

PÓS is one of Ireland's most famous authors and a former senator. He is often stated as being a native speaker, but this book isn't as good as it first seems....

I think he was very fluent, and one of those speakers whose mistakes, being small, would go unnoticed in speech. It's only when you see them written down...


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun 2021 12:48 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
I'm enjoying this book, which is a translation into Munster Irish of Wolf Tone's diairies, but the constant howlers are a disappointment. Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha was brought up in an area where there were native speakers, but I don't think he was a 100% native, as this book shows. The spelling in the book is beautiful, however, all in the old spelling, albeit with the Roman font.

This is from just 2 pages of the book (pp21-22)

1. Fostadh- covered.

2. The Bar Club (a club for barristers). He writes An Barra Chumann, but Cumann an Bharra is the correct term.

3. Nú peocu b’é mo dhán a bhí dhá stiúradh, ní fheadar-sa, ach so, gur gheárr dom gur éiríos breóite tuirseach den dlí.
I've slightly adjusted some spellings, but the point here is that gur gheárr dom go is not right. It should be gur gheárr go....


He could prob. have said gur ghearr liom ... (I thought that ... was short)

Quote:
4. Ó thárla ná raibh maoin ná mian agam chun comaoine chur ar na hatúrnaethe uaisle ná chun deochanna do fhreastal dóibh.
Here PÓS uses freastal incorrectly in what seems to be Béarlachas. I think it should be deochanna do riaradh orthu.

5. Truailliú ar a ngalántacht go gcaithfidh an chuid is uaisle aigne den ghairm d’fhulag.
Here we read go gcaithfidh, where a chaithfidh (direct relative) is needed.

6. Thuigeas gurbh é mo dhualgas, agus dob é go dearfa mo mhian é, mo chúnamh a thabhairt leis.
Should be mo chúnamh a thabhairt do.

7. Do bhí san tuíllte thar bárr aige fiú mar chuaigh sé chun dua agus chun costais lem oiliúint-se.
I can't find attestation in Munster Irish of dul chun dua or dul chun costais, and suspect Béarlachas. Chuir sé dua agus costas air féin would be better.

8. An dá thigh deiridh.
He doesn't give lenition on deiridh, but after the dual it should be there.

9. Cnuc a' tSamhraidh.
He gives "Summerhill, Dublin" as this, but it should be Cnuc Críonáin.


Cnoc an tSamhraidh de réir
https://www.logainm.ie/en/1381449

Quote:
10. Bhí sé d’ádh air go bhfuair sé beart fén bPaving Board.
I think d'ádh requires a verbal noun after it. And beart for a post or position isn't very good either (from the English "berth"?): bhí sé d'ádh air post sa Paving Board a dh'fháil. I'm not sure about the , and don't think it right.

11. Do bhí mo dhroch-mheas don dlí ag méadú ó ló go ló agus níor lú-de é toisc ná raibh ag éirí liom féin inti
Níor lú-de é - can it be followed by toisc in this way? I think it better as níor lú-de é ná raibh ag éirí liom féin inti, without toisc.


It is prob. a Béarlachas but
"Toisc" is a noun. So it can accompany "Is lúide é". At least grammatically, it is okay.
Is lúide é an toisc seo = it is all the less for this circumstance
Here:
"It wasn't all the less for [the] circumstance that I didn't succeed ..."


Last edited by Labhrás on Fri 25 Jun 2021 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun 2021 1:17 pm 
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Thank you. I should have checked logainm for the Summerhill name - although logainm states it is an unvalidated name. I got my version from Wikipedia, I think.

Maybe toisc go/ná is felt like a noun still? Not all of my criticisms were valid, it seems.

There is much to say about this book. He likes verbal noun+do:
Quote:
nú gur fhíll sé ar an Iúróip ar bheith dá théarma caite

This is bheith+do: once his term was finished.

There seems to be 4 or 5 of these verbal noun+do constructions on every page. I feel it creates a kind of "high-style" or literary feel to the book and so suits it quite well. However, Mícheál Ó Siadhail said in Modern Irish that this was a Donegalism (if there is such a word? Maybe the Irish is formed from Tír Chonaill, and so a Donegalism is a Conailleachas?)

Maybe PÓS was trying to create a high-style version of Munster Irish as his contribution to a future standard language. The book is 707 pages long and is quite a long read. The glory of the book is the attractive personality of Wolf Tone, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun 2021 3:07 pm 
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gur gheárr dom gur éiríos breóite tuirseach den dlí

The reason why this should be gur gheárr gur éiríos breóite tuirseach den dlí is that means "it was not long before I had grown sick and tired of the (legal profession)".

Ba gheárr go: it was not long until

The meaning (and I'm relying on the English original which is on archive.org) isn't "it seemed to me to be short". But yes, Labhrás, you're right that if that had been the correct meaning, it could have been phrased that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun 2021 10:35 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
gur gheárr dom gur éiríos breóite tuirseach den dlí

The reason why this should be gur gheárr gur éiríos breóite tuirseach den dlí is that means "it was not long before I had grown sick and tired of the (legal profession)".

Ba gheárr go: it was not long until

The meaning (and I'm relying on the English original which is on archive.org) isn't "it seemed to me to be short". But yes, Labhrás, you're right that if that had been the correct meaning, it could have been phrased that way.


Just an explanation for the mistake.
Often you can use either le or do for subjectivity/objectivity. So, if I can add "liom" I could probably think that I could add "dom", too (though it doesn’t add any further information).


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 Post subject: Re: Fostadh
PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun 2021 10:49 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Thank you. I should have checked logainm for the Summerhill name - although logainm states it is an unvalidated name. I got my version from Wikipedia, I think.

Maybe toisc go/ná is felt like a noun still? Not all of my criticisms were valid, it seems.

There is much to say about this book. He likes verbal noun+do:
Quote:
nú gur fhíll sé ar an Iúróip ar bheith dá théarma caite

This is bheith+do: once his term was finished.

There seems to be 4 or 5 of these verbal noun+do constructions on every page. I feel it creates a kind of "high-style" or literary feel to the book and so suits it quite well. However, Mícheál Ó Siadhail said in Modern Irish that this was a Donegalism (if there is such a word? Maybe the Irish is formed from Tír Chonaill, and so a Donegalism is a Conailleachas?)

Maybe PÓS was trying to create a high-style version of Munster Irish as his contribution to a future standard language. The book is 707 pages long and is quite a long read. The glory of the book is the attractive personality of Wolf Tone, of course.


I don't think that (ar) [verbal noun] dom is confined to Tír Chonaill.
Ó Siadhail (p. 181/182) says it occurs in all major dialects and that it is rather "more productive in Kerry".


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