I am involved in a conversation with someone on Facebook (some of you may be involved in that conversation as well) about the term "Gaeilgeoir," which he dislikes because he considers it to have "quasi-pejorative connotations." He claims that it's used to refer to someone whose Irish is "less than accomplished," and he claims that FGB supports this usage.

As far as I can see, neither FGB nor any other Irish dictionary I can get my hands on supports that usage. In all of them the primary definition of "Gaeilgeoir" is simply "Irish speaker." The secondary definition is "Irish learner" in FGB and Foclóir Scoile and "Irish language enthusiast" in Collins.

The sticking point appears to be the word "learner," which I interpret as anyone who has Irish as a second language (i.e., has it as a learned language rather than a language acquired from birth). If nothing else, I read it as a neutral term, not a pejorative one. Some learners may be very accomplished and some not so much.

In fact, in my experience, the term "Gaeilgeoir" tends to be applied to more fluent speakers rather than to new learners or intermediate speakers. I've even heard native speakers referred to as "fíor-Gaeilgeoirí."

I'm not disputing that the word may be used pejoratively in some areas (we all know that how a dictionary defines a word and how it's actually used in speech can vary widely. Languages evolve much faster than do dictionaries, and Ó Dónaill hasn't been updated in a very long time)...I'm only saying that FGB doesn't actually support that usage and that I've never encountered it personally (and that when I have encountered the word "in the wild" it's been used in a positive sense). I'm wondering if any of you have encountered "Gaeilgeoir" being used in a pejorative sense?

Figured I'd ask here rather than continue to hijack the other guy's thread.

Redwolf

Just to add: I've actually always been hesitant to apply the word "Gaeilgeoir" to myself, as I don't consider myself to be fluent enough to merit that label.

At least in Mayo and Corca Dhuibhne, it did tend to mean an over-the-top, notebook carrying, "Can you say that in the genitive?" learner.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Maybe "Gaeilgeoir" is a new word (I couldn't find it, even in another spelling, in Dinneen) that was first used by learners, so maybe native speakers have associated the word with the learners.
In the traditional society, there was no need of such a word, since everybody spoke Irish (those who wouldn't, would probably be considered as strangers or foreigners )

I noticed the same thing in Breton actually. The equivalent of "Gaeilgeoir" is new and not used by native speakers

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

I think Gaeilgeoir is a recently coined term that came about due to the language revival movement as an identity marker (similar to people wearing fáinní óir is airgid). It is not found in Dinneen for instance. It seems to have been originally only used by secondary-language learners, not only to refer to themselves but to all Irish speakers. But, I have never read or heard native speakers refer to themselves or other native speakers using the term; they just use a stock phrase - Gaoluinn ó dhúchas/ ón gcliabháin/ go flúirseach/ go líofa etc... or else they just use the word Gael or (duine) Gaelach - to do so.

It seems that it was used by natives (in jest) to refer to learners of the language though (as Lon Dubh said); something similar is also found in Corca Dhuibhne with the word freisín(í) (from freisin). Fresín is used to describe speakers of school Irish and learners who visit the area, because they use the word freisin; whereas the native speakers in that region would have chomh maith, leis, ina theannta san etc...

However, it wouldn't surprise me if the term Gaeilgeoir may be after gaining traction recently because of how prevalent the word is, speakers are guaranteed to hear the word in school etc.... I personally chose not to identify with it.

Crossed with Lughaidh

Cian

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

I couldn't find it in Dinneen either, which does suggest it's of more recent coinage.

I've heard that residents of Gleann Cholm Cille refer to the summer learners as "Gabh mo leithscéals" because they say it so often (and then there's the learners from the University of Wisconsin, who are "Na Milwaukees").

Redwolf

From what I've read over the years, "Gaeilgeoir" is a condescending term that's applied to people who are viewed as "purists" by other people who went through over a decade of teaching and still can't manage to ask, in their "native language," for street directions or where's the bathroom or order from a menu at the pub.

I bear it well in mind that I'm writing in English because my Irish is pedestrian to put it politely... Nevertheless I've seen this for years now and I think it's beyond obvious.

It's likely based on the terms Gréagóir "one versed in Greek, a Greek scholar" and Laidneoir (Laidineoir in Ó Dónaill) "a Latinist, a Latin scholar".

Like it or loathe it, it's well established now in both Irish and (Hiberno-)English.
Rejecting it hands it over to the anti-Irish brigade for use as a pejorative label for Irish-language learners/enthusiasts.

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(SL)(GM)

In English, 'gale-gore' is a pejorative word in the minds of many (most?)

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

I think what bothers me the most about the conversation on Facebook is he keeps insisting that Ó Dónaill supports his interpretation (in the head post he mentions showing someone FGB on his phone to prove his point) and it quite simply does not. I'm very open to examples of actual usage that differ from the dictionary definition because, as I said earlier, I know quite well that dictionaries typically can't keep up with spoken language (and even where they do, there are always regional exceptions). That's why I asked you all here, rather than continue to be a gadfly on his thread.

He's even mentioned recently that, because of Ó Dónaill's background, it's worth listening to his opinion on the matter. I agree. the only problem is, Ó Dónaill doesn't express an opinion in that dictionary listing, not does he give an example of usage that might support that interpretation. All he gives us is a primary definition: An Irish speaker, and a secondary definition: An Irish learner, which suggests that, at the time he was compiling and editing the dictionary, the word was neutral in terms of interpretation. Typically, if there is an interpretation beyond the obvious, a dictionary editor will add something along the lines of "Often used pejoratively to denote a person with poor Irish skills, or a learner with an overly fanatical devotion to the language." If the word has shifted toward the pejorative since FGB was compiled, I'd expect to see an addition similar to that in an updated version...but who knows if or when FGB will ever be updated?

That's actually why I looked for support for his assertion in a couple of newer dictionaries as well (Collins and Foclóir Scóile). Collins came closest, with a secondary definition of "Irish-language enthusiast," though it still gives the primary definition as "Irish speaker."

I just get irritated when people misuse references to prove their point (all those years of high school debate, followed by four years of writing all those lit crit papers for college). When the printed resources don't support your claim, it doesn't do to keep insisting that they do, even if your claim is correct. At that point, citing examples of actual usage is essential to proving the point, which is why I decided to bring the discussion here. I think he thinks I'm disagreeing with what he's saying, which I'm not (I've said a couple of times in that thread that, while I've never personally encountered that use of "Gaeilgeoir," I don't dispute that it exists. I'm only pointing out that FBG isn't a good supporting resource).

Redwolf