Hi...

Here's a mechanism I don't quite get:

If I want to say, for example, "The sister is kissing her brother," I might say "Tá an deirfiúr ag pógadh a dearthair." In this example, a singular sister is kissing her singular brother.

If I want to say, however, "The husband is kissing his wife," then, according to RS, I should say "Tá an fear céile ag pógadh a mhná céile." In this example, a singular husband is kissing his singular wife.

The part I dont understand is mhná, which is the plural for woman, right? So why isn't it bhean chéile? And why we're at it, why is céile lenited along with mhná?

Thanks as always,

Will

Bean is an irregular noun, its genitive (form which shows possesion) singular is the same as its plural form.

Adjectives are not lenited after feminine nouns in the genitive, that's why you have céile.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Ok,

Firstly, have you done a bit of study on the Tuiseal Ginideach yet? If you have you should be familiar with the importance of "of" (possession). This will become clear in a second.

There is a mistake in your first example, I'll let you try and fix it yourself in a second too.

ag pógadh
ag déanamh
ag féachaint
ag tiomáint

Are what are known as verbal nouns/ ainm braithartha

Basically anything with ag + an action or alternatively when you have "ing" in English = a verbal noun.

ag pógadh, ag déanamh literally mean at the kissing/ doing of.

This "of" introduces the genitive case (Tuiseal Ginideach) on the noun proceeding the verbal noun in a lot of instances (as two nouns are coming together= TG* (see below)). Sometimes it does not introduce the TG due to dialectal reasons or other grammatical reasons, leave them alone for awhile).

Verbal nouns + nouns:

i.e.

ag siúl an bhóthair (http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=road) (Nominative form: bóthar)
Ag seinm/seinnt ceoil ( http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=music) (nominative form: ceol)
Ag imirt peile (http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=peil) (Nominative form: peil)

The singular tuiseal ginideach form of the word can be seen as gu (ginideach uatha/ genitive singualr) in the focal.ie links above.

*This is similar to two nouns coming together; an fear but hata fir/ hata an fhir. An bhean but hata na mná or hata mná. The woman's hat (literally the hat of the woman)

Now, let's recap.

Ag pógadh is a verbal noun and thus introduces the TG onto the noun coming after it

hence

ag pógadh an fhir (kissing the man), ag pógadh na bhfear (kissing the men)
ag pógadh na mná (kissing the woman), ag pógadh na mban (kissing the women)

Now, your original sentence:

Tá an deirfiúr ag pógadh a deartháir

Lets break it up:

an deirfiúr = noun
ag pógadh = verbal noun
deartháir = noun
a* = the aidiacht shealbhach (possessive adjective= her brother; a deartháir, her cat= a cat, his brother= a dheartháir, his cat= a chat)

Fix your original sentence, what should it be instead? (pay particular attention to the Genitive of "Deartháir": http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=dearth%C3%A1ir):




Ok, lets muddy the water a little:

mná is the nominative plural of bean, hence

bean
na mná (plural)

but

the genitive versions are:
mná
ban (plural)

so:
hata na mná (singular)
hata na mban (plural)

If you remember, ag pógadh is a verbal noun so it introduces the TG, so therefore it is ag pógadh na mná/ ag pógadh a mhá (his wife)

Grand,

céile is an adjective and therefore comes under the influence of the gender of the noun preceding it. Therefore:

an bhean chéile (feminine)
An fear céile (masculine)

An bhean mhór = the large woman
An fear mór = the large man

But this changes in the genitive

i.e.

Fearg na mná móire
fearg an fhir mhóir

hata na mná móire
hata an fhir mhóir

This is standard Irish, dialects would differ on their system.

So that it is why it is

"Tá an fear ag pógadh a mhná céile"

or if we switch it around;

Tá an bhean ag pógadh a fhir chéile

Basically its a mind fuck, don't get to bogged down by it. If you keep reading and listening to good resources you'll get the hang of it. You'd have to be extremely mathematically and logically gifted to internalise this and apply it from purely looking at grammar books.

Crossed with an Lon Dubh's very straight to the point answer!

Cian

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

Oh if only I could go back and ask why!!! ...as heard from someone who learned the English of our surroundings at about 28 years of age... won't say how long ago...
...ag pógadh a fear chéile...
...ag pógadh a ceann eile...
and other similar sounding things...
....never had the sense to ask until 'twas too late!!! LOL...

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.

Tá freagra forleathan scríofa agat a mhic, freagra gearr 'sea mo cheann féin, den tsaghas a thabharfadh Robocop do dhuine!

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

My guess would be that he didn't use the genitive when an adjective followed. I've never really heard native speakers do it that often. Most of the native speakers I know would say:

ag pógadh an bhean rua
not
ag pógadh na mná rua

This is quite an old feature of modern Irish, in plenty of books written in the 1700s and 1800s the authors themselves don't use the genitive when there is an adjective.

I could be completely wrong though.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

true


... which is why I didn't answer this post but left it to the grammar experts.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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Alright, thanks first post (pretty straight-forward). Please gimme til tomorrow to process second post and I'll respond.

For starters, though ag + pógadh, for example, is not at the kissing but, rather, at the kissing of? But then why does it matter, since a is possessive anyway? That is, what is the difference created between The sister is at the kissing her brother and The sister is at the kissing of her brother?

Know what, never mind. I'll have a look at you post and respond tomorrow, hopefully correctly.

The answer is dearthár; the genitive case of deartháir.

Whole post was brilliant, thanks. Very helpful!