Wow This thread is making me feeling fairly stupid, can you give an example of a word for each of the above R types? I cant seem to get my head around it.

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

No problem!

Broad R:

1. Tap version, listen to An t-údar and ana-mhór here: http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... onemeID=47

2. Frictive version, listen to Rí and Rian here: http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... 47&Page=10

3. Devoiced version, listen to a thrá here: http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... onemeID=23

Slender R:

1. Tap version, listen to criathar here: http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... =48&Page=3

2. Frictive version, listen to aire here: http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... =48&Page=1

3. Devoiced version, listen to a thréad here: http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... onemeID=24

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Thats great, I think I finally understand

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Ive been listening to the Slender R, is the devoiced a version of the Tap or the Frictive ? I cant seem to tell.

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

It can be either, depending on what it "would have been" if it were voiced. I'll give a bit more detail later when I get home.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

On the devoiced Broad R -example a thrá, is it also found when there is a f in the middle of the word, as per the examples on the webpage with the same pronunciation symbol /ɾ̥ˠ/. e.g.

bearrfaidh
borrfaidh
thabharfadh

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

In the dialect books there are examples of devoiced l, n, r, ng and even m, as well as semi-voiced (both at the beginning and end, ex: 'hl' and 'lh', if you get my drift)

One book even made the case that they were phonemic, which would be a) very interesting and b) push the phoneme inventory toward 60. This makes sense to me, as even tho they are marginal sounds, in a word like 'camfaidh' it's easy to devoice and if native speakers became sensitive to future and conditional marking by this feature, then it would be systematic.

A possible full set of sounds would run as follows:

b, b', p, p', f, f', m, m', hm, hm', bh, bh' (12)
t, t', (t.), d, d', (d.) k, k', g, g' (8/10)
r, r', hr, hr', s, s', (z), (z') (6/8)
Y, j, x, x', (4)
h (1)
ng, ng', hng, hng' (4)
L, l, L', l', hL, hl, hL', hl' (8)
N, n, N', n', hN, hn, hN', hn' (8)

If you were to consider /R/ and thus /hR/ as validly independent, then that's two more

That's a possible 55 (or 57) sounds that someone who was sensitive to marginal sounds from within the system (devoiced l, n, r and ng sounds), dialectal developments (z, z'), plain English sounds in unassimilated loan words, and possible historical leftovers or de-developments (R and hR)

One other thought when reading the Ring book is whether Ring was part of or on the edge of some sort of Sprachbund with Wales as it seemed to not like the slender r, seems to have had trills and had a funny broad l sound. Just a thought.

My books are in storage, but once I get a house I can look at them again

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Yes indeed, when f is found in the ending of a verb it's really a th sound. I.e. -f(a)idh = -th(a)idh, -f(e)adh = -th(e)adh. The exceptions are the second person condition -f(e)á and the future and conditional autnonomous endings -f(e)ar, -f(a)í, where it really is pronounced as an f.

Hence, the th devoices the preceding consonant.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Brilliant thanks.

Just one other thing, when do you get a Tapped Slender R and a Frictive version?

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Well it would have, not so much now, distinguished the future and subjunctive for some verbs:

go gcamfaidh sé = that it will bend.
Go gcamaidh sé = May it bend.



Wow, that's basically two and half times as much as English! If you add in R', hR', R, hR, as you said, you'd get 59! Of course I don't think we know if hR and R were different.
Actually, when you add in all the vowels (11), the diphthongs (6) and the triphthongs (1 in Connacht(?)), that would basically give a 19th century Roscommon speaker 73 phonemes!

To add to the confusion, Cavan Irish had [ʁ] as an allophone of broad r!

Do you know when R' died out?


Yeah Cionnfhaolach's recording has made me curious about slender r in An Rinn.

The weird broad l, which basically becomes [γ] for some speakers, was also found on Na Blascaodaí. It's not too surprising, if you "really" velarise l you get pretty close to [γ]. I know a speaker in Kerry who pronounces the language Gaeghainn.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal