It is currently Fri 25 Jun 2021 3:23 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Slender r
PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2014 2:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1177
There are a few members here with much better knowledge of the IPA than me and I was wondering what is the correct IPA transcription of the slender r sound?

I know one of the allophones is [ɾʲ], but what is the symbol for the typical slender r sound, the buzzing z-like one?

_________________
The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2014 11:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2414
There are 2 allophones described in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, I made a screenshot but I dunno how to publish a photo on this forum :(
Strangely enough, I don't remember having seen any IPA transcription of the slender r in any study of an Irish dialect. I wonder why. As if it were a taboo to transcribe Irish in real IPA!
In the DIAS series, phonetical realisations of phonemes are described but the authors don't use any IPA transcription.

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 10:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1177
Lughaidh wrote:
There are 2 allophones described in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, I made a screenshot but I dunno how to publish a photo on this forum :(
Strangely enough, I don't remember having seen any IPA transcription of the slender r in any study of an Irish dialect. I wonder why. As if it were a taboo to transcribe Irish in real IPA!
In the DIAS series, phonetical realisations of phonemes are described but the authors don't use any IPA transcription.

Thanks Lughaidh, I have Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, so I know what you're talking about. Would Ó Sé's first allophone, which is something like [ɹʲ] sound correct to you?
There is a little symbol under the r, i.e. it's not just [ɹʲ]. Is that the symbol for raising? I think it is [ɹ̝ʲ], don't have the book with me at the moment.

Thanks for any help with this! :GRMA:

_________________
The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 3:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 01 Jun 2013 8:46 pm
Posts: 466
to upload photos you have to email them to ilf@irishlearner.awyr.com.
They then stick them on the server.

_________________
Bíonn rudaí maithe mall


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 5:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2414
Grma!

Seo a bhfaghthar in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne:

Image

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 26 Dec 2013 3:21 pm
Posts: 155
Not to completely take the thread off topic, but Imgur.com is an excellent image hosting site. They have a loose affiliation with Reddit and there is even an /r/gaeilge gallery, though it's not very active. You can upload images there and include them in your post here using the img tag above the text entry box. You just put the web address of the image file between the open and close img tags.

The benefit of using imgur would be that awyr.com wouldn't have to supply the bandwidth for serving the images. Mar shampla...

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 6:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 3560
Location: An Astráil
RobertKaucher wrote:
Not to completely take the thread off topic, but Imgur.com is an excellent image hosting site. They have a loose affiliation with Reddit and there is even an /r/gaeilge gallery, though it's not very active. You can upload images there and include them in your post here using the img tag above the text entry box. You just put the web address of the image file between the open and close img tags.

The benefit of using imgur would be that awyr.com wouldn't have to supply the bandwidth for serving the images. Mar shampla...

Actually, we would prefer that people didn't use "free" online upload services. They tend to be spam buckets and come and go over time (and some of them delete files after a given period) leaving gaps in the forum.

We don't have a bandwidth problem at awyr.com and uploading files to awyr.com keeps them together with the forum. If users have any images or soundfiles they would like to upload, they can send them to us (at ilf@irishlearner.awyr.com). That way we can also screen them for appropriateness to the forum.

If a trusted user has a lot of good stuff to contribute, we can also set up an FTP account for them to use.

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 6:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 26 Dec 2013 3:21 pm
Posts: 155
I understand completely. The only reason I suggest them is because they are used by lots of large web communities like Reddit and StackExchange. I know exactly what you mean about most free sites and spam. I'd never recommend one of those. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 7:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 3560
Location: An Astráil
Back to the original question, what about just using [ʒ]?

How do [ɼ(j)] and [ɾ̝(j)] differ? (These two symbols were used for /r´/ on Daltaí by different users, but I don't know them well enough to comment on their appropriateness.)

Actually one reason people prefer to stick to the phonemic system, i.e., /r´/, etc., is that IPA can be too precise. Sometimes the acceptable native phoneme map for a letter can include more than one IPA symbol (and other times not. :darklaugh: )

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Slender r
PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan 2014 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 26 Dec 2013 3:21 pm
Posts: 155
Breandán wrote:
Back to the original question, what about just using [ʒ]?

How do [ɼ(j)] and [ɾ̝(j)] differ? (These two symbols were used for /r´/ on Daltaí by different users, but I don't know them well enough to comment on their appropriateness.)

Actually one reason people prefer to stick to the phonemic system, i.e., /r´/, etc., is that IPA can be too precise. Sometimes the acceptable native phoneme map for a letter can include more than one IPA symbol (and other times not. :darklaugh: )


I don't know that [ʒ] actually exists in native Irish speech. This is the s sound in pleasure. It's still an alveolar consonant though... Could that be it? It's certainly fits the description of buzzing.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 50 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group