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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 5:34 pm 
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at http://breis.focloir.ie/en/eid/déad, from de Bhaldraithe

déad chailce - white teeth
déad cailce - pearly teeth

This is the sort of thing I'd love to read a long discursive article on to get the rules of lenition right in my mind.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 5:48 pm 
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Maybe it's not too divorced from the ar bord and ar bhord examples, the unmarked (lenition = normal) pattern being used for the more concrete meaning and the marked (suspension of lenition = unusual) pattern for the more abstract sense?

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 7:05 pm 
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I can't think what the difference would be between déad chailce and déad cailce. They both seem to mean that the teeth are the colour of chalk.

Maybe déad is one of these words that's masculine in one dialect and feminine in another. Or it could be just a typo. :dhera:

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 7:09 pm 
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There is actually some difference in meaning if you do (typical) or don't lenite an adjective after a feminine noun, as Jaybee said. I remember an example of Bróg chailín and Bróg cailín from Peadar Ua Laoghaire, but I don't remember in which of his works he explained it.

I'd also like to read a good account of this subtle piece of grammar.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 7:23 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
There is actually some difference in meaning if you do (typical) or don't lenite an adjective after a feminine noun, as Jaybee said. I remember an example of Bróg chailín and Bróg cailín from Peadar Ua Laoghaire, but I don't remember in which of his works he explained it.

You really need to keep better notes :darklaugh:

The shoe example sounds vaguely familiar to me. Is it something like a girl's shoe (belonging to a girl) vs. a girly shoe (suitable for a girl)?

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 9:11 pm 
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You may mean Gerald O'Nolan's explanation on p113 of his New Era Grammar that culaith SHagairt means vestments for a particular priest?


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec 2013 9:54 pm 
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Aspiration of noun is often dynamic, i.e., employed
to mark certain psychological distinctions : ar bruach na farraige
—on the sea-shore (indefinite) : ar bhruach na farraige on a
(particular) shore of the sea
.

https://archive.org/details/NewEraGrammarOfModernIrish

It does seem (along with the other examples) to show a general/'stative' sense when lenition is suspended, and a more concrete meaning when it is used (in contexts that basic rules would say it is expected)

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 12:21 pm 
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I'm very dubious about accepting any explanation from a grammar book that old... I've seen what sort of nonsense they were spouting about English in that era after all.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 1:04 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
I'm very dubious about accepting any explanation from a grammar book that old... I've seen what sort of nonsense they were spouting about English in that era after all.


:!:

Gerald O'Nolan was one of the all-time greats. Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh was another one. In fact, the more recent books are all about the Caighdéan Oifigiúil, so you have to go to old books to get the real explanation.

If you are happy with the CO and want the latest explanation of that, you can download the PDF of Graiméar Gaeilge at https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 7178,d.ZGU


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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 4:59 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
I'm very dubious about accepting any explanation from a grammar book that old... I've seen what sort of nonsense they were spouting about English in that era after all.

I've seen it questioned, the validity of the 'obair baile' vs. 'obair bhaile'


http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/14585.html
Quote:
Mind you...can anyone shed any light on the Obair Baile or Obair Bhaile debate...? 
Obair baile is what the native speakers use. We have a native speaker in our local school and the use of "obair bhaile" by the other teachers is a bit strange to her.

I've never heard anything other than "obair" being feminine: 
an obair shuimiúil 
tús na hoibre suimiúla 
na hoibreacha suimiúla 
tús na n-oibreacha suimiúla

Fear na mBróg --> I have heard that there was a difference between obair bhaile and obair baile. One means "homework" (for school), the other one means "the work you have to do at home, like to sweep dust, etc. I don't remember which one is which one. Maybe obair bhaile = sweeping etc and obair baile = school work. 
...Obair is always feminine; sometimes there are exceptions to the rule of séimhiú on a noun that is after a feminine noun in the nominative case, cf tír mór = the continent (or Ireland, as opposed to the small Irish isles, like Tory, the Aran isles, etc), although tír is feminine.
...I've heard that explanation before too Lughaidh, that "obair baile" is school homework and that "obair bhaile" is housework. I have only heard this from people who have attended a particular college under a particular lecturer...I don't think native speakers are generally aware of the distinction. Obair tí is what I normally hear for housework...interestingly there's no séimhiú on that either.
...I see Ó Do/naill has "obair bhaile" for homework...


http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/33675.html
Quote:
An chéad cheann: obair tí
An dara ceann: obair bhaile
Níl a fhios agam cén fáth nach séimhítear "tí", ach is é sin a deirtear.

Ní mise a phléigh é. An é "gloine a bhfuil fíon inti / gloine le haghaidh fíona" vs. "gloine atá déanta as fíon (!)" atá i gceist? Ach níl an "obair bhaile" déanta as "baile". Cabhrú, led thoil!

gloine fíona - gloine atá lán d'fhíon, nó lán gloine d'fhíon ("glass of wine", le dul i muinín an Bhéarla)
gloine fhíona - gloine de chineál áirithe ("wineglass")

Ar ndóigh, ní mór eatarthu go hiondúil. Mar shampla,
ubh circe - ubh ar le cearc í
ubh chirce - ubh de chineál áirithe (an cineál a bhéarfadh cearc)
Fág scéalaíocht Hans Christian Andersen as an áireamh agus is beag cás inar chóir dealú eatarthu! Mar an gcéanna an uimhir gutháin (uimhir a bhaineanns le guthán) agus an uimhir ghutháin (uimhir de chineál áirithe, bíodh an uimhir áirithe féin bainteach le fón nó ná bíodh.)

Ach tá roinnt eiseamláirí suntasacha a bhfuil fíordhifear seimeantach i gceist leo:
gloine fíona/fhíona (nó beorach/bheorach, nó cibé a bheas agat féin...)
cos maide/mhaide
culaith mairnéalaigh/mhairnéalaigh


PATRICK -REGARDING AN OLDER POST HERE -Rud eile de: níl an séimhiú féin le brath ach i gcás ainmfhocail bhaininscní agus consan inséimhithe ina dhiaidh, ar ndóigh, ach is féidir an difear céanna a fheiceáil i ngnéithe eile den ghramadach, mar shampla in ord na haidiachtaí:
cupán tae - "cup of tea" nó "teacup"
ach
cupán beag tae - "small cup of tea"
cupán tae beag - "small teacup
"

QUOTE -gloine fíona - gloine atá lán d'fhíon, nó lán gloine d'fhíon ("glass of wine", le dul i muinín an Bhéarla)
gloine fhíona - gloine de chineál áirithe ("wineglass")


Ach níl FGB ar aon intinn leat:

gloine, ... ~ fíona, wine-glass; glass of wine
.


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