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 Post subject: He said it was a horse
PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013 3:16 pm 
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Hi I know in Standard Irish this is:

Dúirt sé gur chapall gurbh ea é.

At least I think so - there is a part in the Irish edition of the Christian Brothers' Grammar about this.

But I see in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne it would be:

Dúirt sé gur chapall ab ea é. (Or duairt sé? - whatever - that's not the focus of my question...)

I am thinking there is a good possibility that the double gur is an older construction from 19th century Irish that has made it through into the CO, because if they don't have it in Corca Dhuibhne, then where do they have it?

(I am not saying the double gur is wrong - it is beautiful in fact, and I prefer to use it, but just asking for the dialect forms).

*What do they say in Ulster Irish?
*What do they say in the Connemara? I wonder if Bríd Mhór can tell us what she would say?
*What do they say in Waterford Irish?

And of course if anyone has any knowledge of subdialectal forms in various parishes, it would be fascinating too. I looked in Mícheál Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish and couldn't find a comment on this construction, but I may have been looking in the wrong place.

A very interesting thing, in my view.

There might be other ways to say it - but I am specifically looking for the form where the copula construction is in a subordinate clause (dúirt sé go) and the copula is an indefinite copula fronted by ea, in order to find out what the other dialects have for the double go construction.


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PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013 4:31 pm 
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That standard form is, in my experience, extremely rare. It was a 19th century Munster form, I'm not sure if it was to be found in other dialects or in Classical Irish. I myself have only seen it occasionally in books by Peadar Ua Laoghaire, Gearóid Ó Nualláin, Tomás Ó Criomhthain and Peig Seyers.

In standard Irish today it appears only in a few official translations.

As you said yourself, it only occurs when we have a dependent copular sentence with the copula itself then in the emphatic classification form.

All I can say is what I was told in the Corca Dhuibhne gaeltacht when I asked about this construction, as it is also a favorite of mine.
Firstly, that its presence in Munster Irish is due to the fact that leabhar 'sea é is the typical sentence structure and so when a classification sentence appears after go/gur there is a tendency to retain it, especially when being emphatic.
Secondly, in the modern ab ea é, abh ea é the ab and abh are just reductions of gurb and gurbh.

This sentence structure is common enough, I have:
Dúirt sé gur saghas cairt ab ea é He said it was a kind of car
in my notes, from a native speaker from near Ceann Trá (note saghas no longer takes genitive).

In fact I think its equally as common as:
Dúirt sé gur saghas cairt é He said it was a kind of car (Not heard).

Bríd, how would you say:
He said it's a type of car.
Are there several ways or only one way?

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Oct 2013 10:46 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
Dúirt sé gur chapall ab ea é.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Dúirt sé gur saghas cairt ab ea é.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Bríd, how would you say:
He said it's a type of car.
Are there several ways or only one way?

I would say "ab ea é" pronounced as one word "a_ba_a" too.
Or more simply - Dúirt sé gur cárr é.

Also common as a question and also as a confirmation that you are listening to the conversation - "ab ea?" (a_ba)

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Oct 2013 5:14 pm 
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That's really interesting, thanks Bríd! :good:

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Oct 2013 9:43 pm 
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Saghas "default version" na Mumhan is ea is ea é/í, nach ea? Is é atá ann/intí an gnáthleagan Ultach, cé go bhfuil is ea é/í le cluinstin corruair.

"He said it was a horse" - Dúirt sé gur beathach (= capaill) a bhí ann.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Oct 2013 11:03 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
Saghas "default version" na Mumhan is ea is ea é/í, nach ea? Is é atá ann/intí an gnáthleagan Ultach, cé go bhfuil is ea é/í le cluinstin corruair.

"He said it was a horse" - Dúirt sé gur beathach (= capaill) a bhí ann.


"...atá ann". - We use that in Conamara too.

"cineál" instead of "saghas" though, usually.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct 2013 1:48 am 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
"cineál" instead of "saghas" though, usually.[/size]


Bríd, I read somewhere that they have a broad n in cineál in the Connemara. Do you say cineál or cionál?


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct 2013 12:46 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
cionál


We do. :good:

_________________
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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct 2013 4:08 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
patrickjwalsh wrote:
cionál


We do. :good:

Another question if I may! :D

What is the difference, to you, between cionál, saghas and aicme? :GRMA:

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PostPosted: Mon 21 Oct 2013 4:31 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
What is the difference, to you, between cionál, saghas and aicme?


I think it's a matter of dialect.
Isn't "aicme" what Wiley Coyote uses? :D

aicme - is not a common word. But I hear it in the media to mean (social) class etc.

saghas - I use that too when it means measurement. Cén saghas cóta a chaitheann tú? (What size coat do you wear?)

cineál/cionál - "kind". What kind of coat is it? Tá mé cineál(ín) fuar. (I am kind of cold. )

But the meaning is probably interchangeable in other dialects. I don't know.

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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