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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2026 1:34 am 
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Reading through Diarmuid Ó Sé Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne I came across the following example on page 378:

Quote:
ə 'nahər 'ʃin’ | əs 'mu: 'k’l’i:əv f’amə'ni: xur 'sun ı'n’i:s ə gu:əs 'bi:
a n-athair sin, is mó cliabh feamnaí a chuir san aníos i gCuas Buí


In his phonetic transcription he uses<'> to indicate primary stress, equal stress on two different phonemes, or stress shifting onto a phoneme where it might not otherwise be expected based on other dialects. He uses <’> to indicate that the previous consonant is palatalised/slender.

What interested me was his transcription of a n-athair, ə 'nahər, with no palatalisation marked on the final r. Suspecting this was a mistake, I checked page 10 where he discusses his phonetic notation, and found the following:

Quote:
Bainim úsáid as litreacha agus comharthaí na hAibítre Foghraíochta Idirnáisiúnta (IPA 1996), taobh amuigh de na leasuithe seo a leanas a bhfuil taithí orthu i léann na Gaeilge: an comhartha caoile [’] in ionad [j] na háibítre, agus k’, g’, x’, ɣ’ in ionad [c], [ɟ], [ç], [j].


He makes no mention in this section about r’, though he certainly does use it throughout the book.

On the next page he discusses the sound system and makes the following statement:

Quote:
Maidir leis na r-anna, is minic allafón cuimilteach ag r’ atá difriúil go maith le r ina dhéantús, dá bhrí sin ní difríocht cáilíochta ar fad atá ansin ach oiread.


Admittedly, I'm not entirely sure what he means by this. Is he saying there are two forms of palatal r’ used, one of which is a fricative allophone of the other, both of which are separate from non-palatal (broad) r? Or, is he saying that palatal r’ is a fricative allophone of non-palatal r, which is more of a tap?

More to the point, however, if it is the latter, then why is he calling one an allophone of the other? I would take this to mean that neither realisation of the phoneme represented by the letter r contribute to distinctions of meaning. I am aware that many younger speakers of Munster Irish today have a tendency to drop palatal r’, in favour of broad r, but Ó Sé says on page 7 that the native speaker who provided the example above, a n-athair, is Eoghan Ó Catháin, who was born before 1920. I wouldn't have expected conflation of broad and slender r this early in Munster Irish.

So, was the phonetic transcription incorrect, or am I misunderstanding something else here?


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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2026 3:11 am 
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Well, the Irish of West Muskerry shows a list of combinations where the consonant is unexpectedly broad. R is always broad before slender s. In pronunciation, I mean, not in the spelling. It is possible this largely was based on Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's Irish and there may have been more variation among speakers, but in eg "do labhair sé", the r is broad. It is pronunced "do labhar sé".

Ó Cuív states in IWM (§§47, 48) that /r/ resists palatalisation in /rdʹ/, /rtʹ/, /rnʹ/, /rhnʹ/, /rlʹ/, /rhlʹ/ and /rʃ/.


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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2026 4:09 am 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 498
Location: Corcaigh
djwebb2021 wrote:
Well, the Irish of West Muskerry shows a list of combinations where the consonant is unexpectedly broad. R is always broad before slender s. In pronunciation, I mean, not in the spelling. It is possible this largely was based on Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's Irish and there may have been more variation among speakers, but in eg "do labhair sé", the r is broad. It is pronunced "do labhar sé".

Ó Cuív states in IWM (§§47, 48) that /r/ resists palatalisation in /rdʹ/, /rtʹ/, /rnʹ/, /rhnʹ/, /rlʹ/, /rhlʹ/ and /rʃ/.


It had never occurred to me that these rules would cross word boundaries, but actually, that's probably it. Thanks.


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