I took some notes last year at Glen Colm Cille and I'm having trouble understanding exactly what the teacher was communicating concerning lenition and/or urú with the prepositions. I'm basically looking for some general rules for use of seimhiú and urú when using common prepositions. I've copied my notes and posted them here for comment and review. I've colored them red so you can see the original notes (in red). The teacher was from Tír Eoghan and has a definite Ulster approach to the language. All of her learning would have been in Derry and/or Belfast. She now works in Irish language research in Tír Eoghan. I really would prefer to just hear Ulster application with the pronouns so I won't become more confused. I've followed each of the A,B,C rules with what I think would be examples. I may be confusing dialects here because of exposure I've been getting reading little novels. With my examples am I understanding what possibly might have been communicated? I know it's strange to ask others what my notes might mean, but I'm trying to get the notes off of pages and into my computer. These notes were taken about a year ago.



A
ag / as / le / chuig / i / go = N "H"
X DENTLS ∆ + "an" > "h" ex. leis an bhothar

Examples:

I think she was saying no lenition except with the article "an" and of course no lenition with DNTLS.
Use of an "H" when the noun following begins with a vowel like "go hÉireann".
ag - ag geata / ag an gheata
as - as cólaiste / as an chólaiste
le - le cúnamh Dé / leis an chúnamh
chuig - chuig bord / chuig an chólaiste
i - i mbíalann / sa bhíalann
go - go Méiricea ?

B
faoi / gan / ó / roimh = + "h"


Is there seimhiú without a definite article and an urú when using the definite article?

faoi - faoi gheasa / faoin gcéad *
gan - gan choinne
gan mhaith
gan dóchas (seems it sometimes lenits and sometimes it seems to not lenit)

ó - ó chíon is ó chóngar
ó Thuaidh


C
ar + "h" ar chapall.... leis eisteachtaí

I'm supposing my notes mean "ar" usually seimhiús, but is followed by urú when a definite article is used.

ar - ar bhothar / ar an mbothar
ar capall / ar an gcapall


Thanks for any insight into what I might have meant when I wrote this stuff down.

Slán agus go raibh mile maith agaibh,
Féabar

Hi, a Fhéabair.

I've added (GU) to the title to indicate that you want mainly Ulster Irish input.

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[hr]Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher[/hr]
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

right, except the missing ó (bhóthar) (but in Ulster we rather say "leis an bhealach (mhór)" )



yeah you prefix h to vowels
(be careful, it is "go hÉirinn", not *go hÉireann, because "Éireann" is the genitive case, but "go" requires the dative : Poblacht na hÉireann but tá mé ag gabháil go hÉirinn). (and Éirinn and Éireann aren't pronounced the same way: Éirinn is AY-rhiñ (with the Spanish sound ñ, ny in English) while Éireann is AY-rhunn.
I've recorded them: http://fr.forvo.com/word/%C3%A9ireann/#ga
http://fr.forvo.com/word/%C3%A9irinn/#ga


yes

yes except the síneadh fada is on the a coláiste


yes


yes (but "coláiste" again)


yes (but no síneadh fada in that word, actually "ía" doesn't exist in Modern Irish, it's always "ia")



yes: go Meiriceá (I think we say go Meirice in Donegal)



after faoi, ó, roimh : séimhiú with article (in the singular) and without articles.
"Gan" is a bit different because it doesn't lenite everything (see New Irish Grammar p.14 - if you have it)



normally it's "faoin chéad" in Donegal. (using urú after "faoin" is a Connachta/Munster thing).



Yeah, "gan" lenites, except...
- d, t, f, s
- qualified nouns (gan bréag ar bith, but if you remove "ar bith" it becomes "gan bhréag")
- verbal nouns when it means "not to+verb" (I told him not to marry = dúirt mé leis gan pósadh)
- proper names (gan Micheál)




yes



the ó that is used to express directions is a completely different word ; yes "thuaidh" is lenited but it's always lenited actually




yes, ar chapall. And yes there are exceptions, mainly set phrases.



"ar an" is followed by urú only in Munster and Connachta, as "faoin" etc. In Ulster it's much simpler, it's always séimhiú: ar an bhóthar (or ar an bhealach), ar an chapall... and ar chapall.

Another thing I see from what you wrote, looks like you were taught stuff like ar + "h". This is very likely to confuse learners, because what is "h"? Is it prefixed h (as in "go hÉirinn") ? or séimhiú? Learners can't know. Because prefixing h- to vowels and séimhiú on consonants never happen in the same situations : either the preposition prefixes h to vowels and don't lenite consonants, or it lenites consonants and then it doesn't change anything to vowels.

I know many Irish teachers say "that preposition adds "h" " and that's why learners often don't know if it means they need to add h- to vowels or lenite consonants and then make mistakes...
It's much clearer to teach for example:
le prefixes h to vowels
faoi lenites consonants (= faoi triggers séimhiú, = faoi aspirates).

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Lughaidh, are you saying that there's no urú after any preposition+article in Donegal?

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Táim ag foghlaim fós. Fáilte roimh gach aon cheartúchán.

Tá (thá?) tú ar an bhealach mhór ceart, is dóiche!

Even if they did use urú, it would be hard to recognise as they've already nazalised the entire dialect.

(A bit like Strine really. )

_________________
[hr]Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher[/hr]
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

That's freaky. How did you guess I say thá? (I always write tá).

_________________
Táim ag foghlaim fós. Fáilte roimh gach aon cheartúchán.

yes, if you're talking about simple prepositions that are followed by the dative case.
With prepositions followed by the dative case (ie. most one-word prepositions) singular+article (an): always séimhiú (except d, t, s... of course):

ar an bhealach
faoin fhearthainn
ón gheabhta
as an gharradh
fríd an fhuinneo(i)g
fán fhear
leis an bhean
sa bhaile = ins an bhaile
etc

It's much simpler than in other dialects...

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

I think scooby was mimicking the Ulster dialect (Tá (thá) tú ar an bhealach mhór ceart)- Is the Ulster way of saying your on the right road. The reason I would think he spelled thá like tá is because he was referring to the closeness of Ulster Irish with that of Scottish Gaelic. Ulster Irish is the closest dialect of Irish to Scottish Gaelic- although Scottish Gaelic shares much vocabulary and grammer with Munster Irish also. They pronounce "tá" like "thá" in Scottish Gaelic. As far as I know they don't pronounce "tá" like thá in Ulster- As far as I know.

Mick you say you pronounc tá like thá, thats interesting- what dialect do you speak?

The only Irish dialect I know of that pronounces tá like thá is the sub- Munster dialect of Ring in Co. Waterford.

"tá" is only pronounced like "thá" in Cork and Kerry when there is an "a" preceding "tá"

ex Cork and Kerry. conas athá sibh
standard: conas (a)tá sibh.

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

Don't they also say "conas atánn sibh?"



Thá is used in some cases in Gaoth Dobhair (at least) in some sentences that begin with "tá sé, tá sí, tá siad" when these aren't stressed: it's possible to say "thá e, thá i, thá iod" (cf Comhréir Ghaeilge Ghaoth Dobhair, p.35 & 37).
I think "thá (e, i, iad...)" are very often used in Ros Goill too.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne