I myself was corrected some years ago in Gleann Cholm Cille for using the word 'tidheacht' i n-áit 'teacht'. Maybe the word 'tidheacht (tíocht, in case anybody is wondering) was never used in that area. I never did get to find out, as I let it go at the time, being well aware of the two words anyway, what did surprise me was who it was who corrected me !

Cad chuige is snobby? It's interesting to know, if the teacher was native, that it's snobby in Ulster Irish.

In Munster it just means why? in the sense of For what purpose?, different for other uses of why like Cad ina thaobh?, which is
the general unspecified version of why?

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

in many languages, the word that means "why" (for what reason) comes from a word that means "for what purpose", see French pourquoi, Italian perchè, Spanish porque, Gaelic carson (cò+air son)...

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Oh, that's interesting, especially the Gaelic one.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Scooby says he has never heard the term "Urban". I can assure him it wasn't coined here. I first read about it in the Irish Times article cited in the following article:

http://www.significancemagazine.org/det ... akers.html

I think this article covers the main problem areas quite well and I base my use of the term "Urban" on that. Clearly Brian Ó Broin points to a loss of phonemes and grammar features such as mutations as being part of the Urban Irish phenomenon.

I don't know if Brian Ó Broin coined the term but he seems to be the academic doing the most research into the phenomenon.

Again I stress that if Urban Irish really were just a new standard dialect being formed based on native phonemes, as implied by the definition supplied by Redwolf in her original post above (can you supply the source of that quote please, Redwolf?), it would probably not be perceived as such a problem by native speakers.

Unfortunately, from what I can make of the Brian Ó Broin's definition, it really does appear that Urban Irish includes bad pronunciation and bad grammar.

The way I see the spectrum is as follows:

1. Traditional Gaeltacht Irish (Munster)
2. Modern Gaeltacht Irish (Connemara, Ulster)
3. Native-based Standard Irish (Buntús Cainte, Enjoy Irish, Christian Brothers)
4. Anglicised Standard Irish (Urban)
5. Anglicised Pidgin/Creole Irish (Cúpla Focal)
6. English (No Irish)

Clearly, as mhwombat says above, it is preferable that people speak any Irish they can, even Pidgin Irish (5), rather than no Irish. Beyond that, is it not better to aim higher in the spectrum to the best of one's abilities and for teaching to be focused on 3 and above?

If they agree that native sounds are preferable to the anglicised ones, perhaps Redwolf, Saoirse and others should consider realigning their own definition of what they are pursuing from "Urban" to "Native-based Standard Irish"? Alternatively, how would your definition of what constitutes "good Irish" fit into the above spectrum? or how would you modify that spectrum to fit your definition of "good Irish"?

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

EVERY Gaeltacht dialect is ''traditional Gaeltacht Irish''.... since languages change and involve with its native speakers thats what makes a living language.

My "definition" (such as it is) came mainly from several self-described "Urban Irish" speakers over the past couple of years, which is why I sought to clarify it here.

I know Brian Ó Broin. I should contact him and find out if he coined the term "Urban" and, if not, where he first encountered it.

Redwolf

Redwolf, I seriously suggest you drop the term "urban Irish" because it's absolutely meaningless. It's both an insult against people who don't deserve to be insulted, and a brag by people who have nothing to brag about. It means whatever you want it to mean in any particular moment.

I took a look back at the definition from your original post, and even though I hate the phrase "urban Irish," I think you've got a basis for some good blog posts.


I think you are talking about three different categories of people here.

1. Heritage speakers (family has an unbroken tradition of speaking Irish, but no longer live in the Gaeltacht)
2. Neo-native speakers (the family was previously non-Irish speaking, but now Irish is the first language in their home)
3. Cultural speakers (people who enjoy Irish as a second language, not just learning it as a school or career requirement)

It seems to me that you could write three (or more) blog posts if you looked at each of these categories individually. That's my dhá cent, but it's your blog.

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Táim ag foghlaim fós. Fáilte roimh gach aon cheartúchán.

Good point, Mick, and very helpful! GRMA!

Redwolf

I know Benjamin. This was based on a discussion amongst the Gaeltacht Irish supporters earlier this year that Connemara Irish was better suited to being a spoken standard but that people should also study Munster Irish because it retains many older literary forms. There is of course overlap of both in each dialect (as I said it is a spectrum, the bracketed examples were only meant as a general guideline.)

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).