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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2024 8:33 pm 
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Page 29

leasainm 'nickname'
Bhí gaol ag m'athair léi 'my father was related to her'
báille 'bailiff'
fothrach tí 'ruined house'
tair Munster imperative singular form of tar
feaig 'fag' (i.e. a cigarette)?
ar thaobh na lámha deise 'on the right hand side'
roim an roimis an is also common in Munster

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2024 3:46 am 
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Séamus O'Neill wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
úrshaillte: pronounced úruílhi


Are you sure that úrshaillte is pronounced úruílhi? I would think that (at least in CDh) that it would be something like /ˈuːɾˠˈhɐilʲtʲĕ/, rhyming with words like caillte, but I could be wrong.

djwebb2021 wrote:
cuireadh duine do na lads amach: what is the context? I'm not going to fetch my book again, but this can't mean "one of the lads set out". If it were past habitual, it would be "chuireadh". If it is the preterite autonomous, "do cuireadh", then it would mean "one of the lads was sent out".


Here's a bit more context: Cuireadh duine do na lads amach chun na cearca a chur isteach agus iadh orthu le heagla go dtiocfadh an madra rua. I think you're right that the translation would be 'one of the lads was sent out', I guess I didn't notice the lack of lenition and just assumed that it was a past habitual form, as that is the tense that has been established throughout much of the book so far.

djwebb2021 wrote:
Fan ansan uaim nó comáinfaidh tú simplí iad: stay there away from me or you will drive them stupid?
Note: comáinfidh is the spelling.


Maybe, this sentence is pretty confusing. I don't have any idea what the second part (i.e. comáin simplí) could mean. comáinfaidh was the spelling in the book, which is definitely a typo.


The pronunciation of úrshaílte is given on p266 of Cnósach Focal ó Bhaile Bhúirne in IPA. Dinneen has an entry for urshaill, but it says "see uiríl".

No - I don't know what iadh means there. Maybe you can ask in Corca Dhuíbhne and let us know what they say?

Comáinfidh tú símplí iad - you will drive them mad, send them crazy


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2024 4:03 am 
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1. Múch an solas, ná braithim arís sibh 'turn off the light, I should not betray you again'?

Isn't braithim here the first-person singular subjunctive? So that I don't see you again? I think Labhrás is the expert on grammar here and he will know better?

2. dhá cearc goir 'two hens in heat'.

Gor means "incubation (of eggs in order to hatch them". Cearc ghuir = a hatching hen (sitting on the egg and keeping it warm in order to hatch it). Dhá chirc ghuir - this is the correct form, with the dative dual.

3. Ba ait liom é pronounced b'ait(h) liom é 'I would like that'

If this is the same as in Séadna, then it means "I'd like to see that", in a leering, sarcastic sense. "You could take on two men in a fight at once? I'd like to see that! The chance would be a fine thing!"

4. I would expect a n-áit féin instead of a áit féin, indicating plurality.

Are you sure? It means "a áit féin ag gach duine acu".

5. Gabhál

There is a word gabhál meaning "armful, bundle" of something.

6. sin é a dheineadh an t-aoileach 'that's what the manure did'?

What is the context? Could it mean "that's what produced the manure"?


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2024 3:24 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
1. Múch an solas, ná braithim arís sibh 'turn off the light, I should not betray you again'?

Isn't braithim here the first-person singular subjunctive? So that I don't see you again? I think Labhrás is the expert on grammar here and he will know better?


It is probably first person imperative:
Ná braithim arís sibh. = Don’t let me perceive ye again.

First person present subjunctive would have (had) the suffix -ad (as in indicative future tense, -fad)
Nár bhraithead aris sibh = May I not ...
ná braithead arís sibh = so that I don’t .... (outside Munster: nach mbraithead arís sibh)
In Classical Irish, the suffix was -ar (braithear). It was never -im in Modern Irish.


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2024 4:45 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
1. Múch an solas, ná braithim arís sibh 'turn off the light, I should not betray you again'?

Isn't braithim here the first-person singular subjunctive? So that I don't see you again? I think Labhrás is the expert on grammar here and he will know better?


It is probably first person imperative:
Ná braithim arís sibh. = Don’t let me perceive ye again.

First person present subjunctive would have (had) the suffix -ad (as in indicative future tense, -fad)
Nár bhraithead aris sibh = May I not ...
ná braithead arís sibh = so that I don’t .... (outside Munster: nach mbraithead arís sibh)
In Classical Irish, the suffix was -ar (braithear). It was never -im in Modern Irish.


Ah yes, I remember now - actually the subjunctive and future are linked, in the 1st declension anyway, with subjunctive being the same form, but without the f. So yes, 1st psn imperative.


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2024 4:56 pm 
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Location: Denver, Colorado
djwebb2021 wrote:
1. Múch an solas, ná braithim arís sibh 'turn off the light, I should not betray you again'?

Isn't braithim here the first-person singular subjunctive? So that I don't see you again? I think Labhrás is the expert on grammar here and he will know better?


I think that it's the imperative, given that it uses the negative imperative participle , rather than the subjunctive nára

djwebb2021 wrote:
3. Ba ait liom é pronounced b'ait(h) liom é 'I would like that'

If this is the same as in Séadna, then it means "I'd like to see that", in a leering, sarcastic sense. "You could take on two men in a fight at once? I'd like to see that! The chance would be a fine thing!"


Ní raibh sé sin air eólas agam, go raibh maith agat!

djwebb2021 wrote:
4. I would expect a n-áit féin instead of a áit féin, indicating plurality.

Are you sure? It means "a áit féin ag gach duine acu".


Á, tá 'n ceart agat, gaibh mo leithscéal.

djwebb2021 wrote:
5. Gabhál

There is a word gabhál meaning "armful, bundle" of something.


Isn't that word just an alternative of gabháil, though?

djwebb2021 wrote:
6. sin é a dheineadh an t-aoileach 'that's what the manure did'?

What is the context? Could it mean "that's what produced the manure"?


Seo dhuit é:

Quote:
Chúig cinn do bha, a áit féin acu go léir, iad ceangailthe le téadán timpeall ar a n-adharca; clós beag adhmaid timpeall orthu ag teacht amach go dtí a gcromáin tosaigh chun go mbeidís ábalta a gcuid bídh fhéin a ithe gan cur isteach óna gcomharsain. Gabhál féir nó punann choirce féna gceann; cuid acu ag ithe agus cuid ag cogaint na cíorach. Luachair ar an urlár fúthu. Sin é a dheineadh an t-aoileach. Bhí ciúnas speisialta san áit seo.

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2024 4:59 pm 
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Location: Denver, Colorado
Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
1. Múch an solas, ná braithim arís sibh 'turn off the light, I should not betray you again'?

Isn't braithim here the first-person singular subjunctive? So that I don't see you again? I think Labhrás is the expert on grammar here and he will know better?


It is probably first person imperative:
Ná braithim arís sibh. = Don’t let me perceive ye again.

First person present subjunctive would have (had) the suffix -ad (as in indicative future tense, -fad)
Nár bhraithead aris sibh = May I not ...
ná braithead arís sibh = so that I don’t .... (outside Munster: nach mbraithead arís sibh)
In Classical Irish, the suffix was -ar (braithear). It was never -im in Modern Irish.


Thanks, Labhrás. I wonder if there might be a different meaning behind the word braith in the context of the book, as the author has used it multiple times already and the typical English translation of 'to feel, to perceive' doesn't make much sense when translated as such, but, again, I could be wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue 31 Dec 2024 12:10 am 
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Page 30

thugtaí may be pronounced thugtí
máthair fhear an tí here the genitive of fear an tí is fhear an tí, where fear is kept in the nominative case but lenited. This is known as the bracketed construction, where fear an tí is seen as one 'meaning unit' and máthair as another one, and they are thus separated by lenition. This construction isn't always consistent among native speakers, but is generally seen as the main construction in the Caighdeán.
Tair aníos literally: 'come from below', aníos indicating movement towards the speaker as apposed to suas indicating motion away from the speaker, thus suggesting that the speaker is situated above the listener.
Coimeád ag siúl 'keep walking, going'
anois pronounced inis (at least in CDh)
muirear 'family' in this case, but also, 'burden'
thána-sa emphatic of thána (thánag in the standard). An alternative form is tháiníos
bog leat, bogaithe leo to me, it seems that the author uses the preposition le with bog when referring to movement of people (but it could be more broad). Does anyone else know of other verbs that could work like this?
ní call a rá go 'it goes without saying'
ag cleasaíocht 'playing tricks'
caid '(Gaelic) football'
réiteoir 'referee'
duine misnigh 'a brave person' (literally: 'a person of courage')

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PostPosted: Tue 31 Dec 2024 12:34 am 
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Page 31 - 32

is mó gualainn is barrathuisle a thugtaí dá chéile 'many a shoulder and trips we gave to each other' (i.e. 'we tripped and shoulder each other much')
a churtaí here we can see that the form cur is used by the author instead of the more common and standard cuir
comh unlenited form of chomh, pronounced
rás na dtrí gcos 'the race of three feet'?
iomrascáil 'wrestling'
B'fhada linn go ... 'it took us a while until ...'
sinsearacht 'seniority'
fo-ainmhí 'lesser animals'?
eascú 'eel'
cabhail 'body'
teanntaithe 'cornered'
caithréim 'triumph'
éalaigh 'escape'
friseáileacht 'freshness'
sreang pronounced with a broad s and a slender r
bhí beirthe air 'he was caught'
oigheann 'oven'
sealgaire 'hunter'

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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jan 2025 11:09 pm 
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Page 33

Ana-annamh the second a of ana- is not pronounced, thus the prefix is more often spelled an- when preceding vowels in Munster
thú pronounced thu. The object form of the second person singular pronoun is almost only lenited when following vowels in Munster, and is even then left unlenited (e.g. ní ligfí amach go deo t(h)u id' aonar, but ní ligfí amach tu id' aonar)
an cine daonna 'the human race'
madra rua pronounced madadh rua
lascadh a thabhairt do liathróid 'to lash a ball'
lúidín 'little finger'
sceach 'whitethorn, hawthorn'
neantóg 'nettle'
... a scríob is a dhóigh mé is there some grammatical reason for the lack of conjugation of these verbs (i.e. not a scríobas is a dhós)? Perhaps it is because there are two verbs here, and therefore there is no need to repeat the subject twice, so the verb form is left analytic?
bhíodh fo-thitim amach anois is arís 'there was the occasional falling out now and again'
ceanrach 'headstall, halter'
béalbhach 'bridle-bit'
fáiscithe 'squeezed'. In the standard, the word is spelt fáiscthe, but this form reflects the epenthetic vowel found between the two consonants.
srian pronounced with a broad s and a slender r (in CDh)
na hamaí 'the hames'
srathar 'straddle'
gan aon tarrac anál' agamsa 'without (me) taking a breath'
buaile 'fold, enclosure'

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Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


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