I think the r in dúirt (the only buzzy r in the Doegen recording reviewed by Jay Bee above) is actually a broad version of this. A following consonant makes the slender r broad, but it still has a different quality from the clear flap.

So the superscript j makes sense for the slender version.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Yes, indeed!

I have been thinking and in total there are eight r's in West Munster (on Sunday I'll check for the Déise dialect).

For broad R:

1.(a) A velarised tap, a tap like the Spanish r, but with the back of your tongue raised.
1.(b) A velarised trill, like Spanish rr, but with the back of your tongue raised.

These are used when broad r is in the middle or end of a word. Either one can be used, or both.

2. A velarised alveolar frictive. Like the buzz sound slender r is famous for, but with the back of the tongue raised, not the front, i.e. there is a "buzzy" broad r, but it only happens at the beginning of words.

3. An unvoiced version of 1., used whenever broad r stands next to th.

For slender R:

1. A palatalised tap, same as 1.(a) for broad r but with the front of the tongue raised.

2. A palatalised alveolar frictive. The "famous" slender r and the one you have on your recording.

3. An unvoiced version of 1, used when next to th.

4. An unvoiced version of 2, used when next to th.


That doesn't sound right to me, Peadar Ua Laoghaire had the buzzing sound and Amhlaoibh Ó Luínse, born in 1839 and the 1870s respectively.

In Conamara, from listening to recordings, although as I said I'm poor at distinguishing sounds, I don't think you have the second version (2.) of broad r.

I'll do a bit more reading and come back with the Déise info and recordings of each of the r's.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

not all consonants make a slender r broad:
those who do are t, d, n, l

the others don't

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Thanks for that clarification, a Lughaidh.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

You guys are all completely blowing my mind. It's a true pleasure to be able to geek out like this and learn so much.

Slender r plus coronal consonant =broad r


I've most of the phonology books by print, photocopy or in digital format plus I've been reading forums for years.

To add something more broad to this discussion, Celtic, I read, had fortis and lenis consonants (a bit like Italian today) and in Irish l, n and r were able to keep the distinction. r is more variable as a sound, so, I suppose it changed in where you would see it strong or weak more so than say n which seems to be more stable.

For example, AFIK, since Old Irish was usually stress initial, l or n would be strong at the beginning but weak in the middle or end (ex: /L'a:n/) and rather due to assimilation ('land' -->'lann') and morphology ('pógann') you would get the fortis consonant in other positions.

We see for r, tho, in the Dialect of Donegal book, mention of r only being a single tap at the beginning, but sometimes trilled in the middle and end and not the other way round (trilled initially and tapped elsewhere as you might expect from generalisation from the l/n data). An example of the old /R/ vs. /r/ difference is viewable in 'fear' and 'fearr' which I guess were [ɸ'æɾ] and [ɸ'ær] as opposed to [ɸ'æɾ] and [ɸʲɑ:ɾ] today (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't mind)


I, myself, if I were suggesting a 'learner's dialect' and wanted to be symmetric, would follow the strong initial, weak medial and final except for minimal pairs and morphological considerations, for no other reason that it would be easy to remember and do

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Thanks JayBee!

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

you mean that about Meenawania by Quiggin?



historically (and may be kept in the speech of some older speakers?), initial non-lenited R and eclipsed R was trilled ; lenited R was only a tap.
Written rr (middle and final) was trilled, as well as r before d, t, n, l (broad or slender).



Gaoth Dobhair, as far as I know:
fear [ɸʲaɾ]
fearr [ɸʲɛːɾ] (because historically it is feárr and stressed á is normally æː or ɛː in northern Donegal)
I guess most people would have a one-tap r in both (and in general for all broad r's) but in the first place (and maybe still in the speech of older speakers) the rr of fearr would be trilled.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Yes; I didn't give the name directly as it's hard to spell

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~danhall ... sammy.html

This is helpful for learning about sounds and terms

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___