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 Post subject: Re: liamhás / ham
PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013 1:18 pm 
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Location: Éire
Yes líofa isn't a made up word.


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 Post subject: Re: liamhás / ham
PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013 1:53 am 
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Getting back to the difference between bacon/ham, bacon is just cured pork, and ham is a body part not a specific type of meat. If anyone here ever pulled a hamstring playing sport you'll know how important it is not to overwork your hams.

It just happens that the hams of a pig make for particularly good cuts of meat, but no one would think so if they wrote "thigh and arse" on the packet. Really, the word ham is used because of polite English sensibilities, and there's not really a need for a separate word in Irish. It's just a specific cut of muiceoil or bagún.

Now I'm curious, is there an Irish name for rump steak?

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 Post subject: Re: liamhás / ham
PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013 4:43 am 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 3512
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
Mick wrote:
Getting back to the difference between bacon/ham, bacon is just cured pork, and ham is a body part not a specific type of meat. If anyone here ever pulled a hamstring playing sport you'll know how important it is not to overwork your hams.

It just happens that the hams of a pig make for particularly good cuts of meat, but no one would think so if they wrote "thigh and arse" on the packet. Really, the word ham is used because of polite English sensibilities, and there's not really a need for a separate word in Irish. It's just a specific cut of muiceoil or bagún.

Now I'm curious, is there an Irish name for rump steak?


I'm not sure that's the case. In the U.S., in any case, ham is definitely cured...it's very different from, say, pork rump roast.

This Wikipedia quote seems to come closest to what I think of as "ham":

Quote:
Ham is uncooked preserved pork. It is cured (a preservation process) usually in large quantities of salt and sugar, then hot smoked (hung over a hot, smokey fire but out of direct heat) to preserve it more. This process keeps the pink hue of the uncooked meat. Standard pork, like chops, are raw and unpreserved. When heat is applied to the meat a chemical reaction happens that turns the hemoglobin white. This also happens when an acid is applied to meats.

The pink color of ham develops in the curing process which involves salt and usually either nitrites or nitrates. The nitrate cure is used for product that will either be kept a long time or at room temperature like dry salami. Most hams are cured with nitrite and salt today.

The cure prevents the growth of unhealthy bacteria (maybe deadly) before enough moisture is withdrawn by the salt. This is particularly important if the product is to be smoked above 40F when these bacteria grow. The "danger zone" for uncured product is between 40F and 140F.


The ham I had in Ireland was similar to the ham in the U.S...the main difference was the bacon, which had a different texture and flavor.

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: liamhás / ham
PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013 5:52 pm 
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Quote:
Same thing with ''ispíní'' you would always hear sausages in the Gaeltacht.


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i'm not surprised, but I don't think it's an invented word either, because in Scotland they use almost the same word, "isbean"... Probably a dialectal word that has been chosen to be "official" although it's not known in all Gaeltachtaí...


The Scottish Gaelic is a bit closer to the original word. According to MacBain's Etymological Dictionary of Scottish-Gaelic (which, of necessity, talks a lot about Irish), the word isbean comes from "the Norse íspen, a sausage of lard and suet". He also gives í-speni as another form, which might explain the Irish form of the word. He explains that it is ultimately derived from the Norse word spen, meaning "teat". There are quite a lot of somewhat hidden Norse words like that in Irish, and probably even more in Gaelic.

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in the first place, líofa (from líomhtha) means polished, smooth (in the song An Saighdeoir Tréigthe they say "le cloich líof(a)"). Maybe using that word to talk about a language doesn't exist in all dialects, but I don't think it is an invention, because it's too different from English

Btw, líomhtha exists in the meaning "fluent" in the Donegal literature (see Tobar na Gaedhilge).


MacBain says that the Middle Irish límtha, meaning polished or sharpened, was cognate with the Welsh llifo, meaning to "grind, whet, or saw", and also with the Latin lîmatus, meaning polished and lî and lei, meaning "smooth" or "flow". In a separate entry, he mentions that the various meanings of líon in Irish, including "linen", "net", and "fill", all come from the same root as well, and mentions Germanic and Slavic cognates, too, so we're dealing with a basic Indo-European root which has taken on different meanings in different places over time. Languages are always in flux (no pun intended), so there's no reason why líofa can't be used to mean "fluent", especially since that's a meaning which appears to be closely related to the the original meaning of the IE root.

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 Post subject: Re: liamhás / ham
PostPosted: Tue 27 Aug 2013 2:15 pm 
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Location: 91 - France
You might like to get hold of 'Lámhleabhar Bia agus Dí' from Foras na Gaeilge. Ham is given (as you'd expect) as liamhás and sirloin steak as stéig chaoldroma. In An Foclóir Beag there is the word rumpa - tóin duine nó ainmhí, but I've no idea if it's been adopted for steak yet.
One translation that did surprise me was on the sleeve notes of the CD 'When All Is Said And Done' by Danú. In the song 'Ó Dheara, 'Sheanduine' they've translated muicfheola as bacon. Here's the complete verse -
Chusa go Corcaigh ag triall ar ghléas tórraimh,
Píopaí tobac agus cláracha comhrann.
Ar mo theacht dom abhaile go tinn tuirseach brónach,
Cá bhfaighinnse mo 'sheanduine ach ag róstadh muicfheola.

Curfá
Ó dheara 'sheanduine, leatsa ní gheobhadsa,
Ó dheara 'sheanduine, loscadh is dó ort,
Ó dheara 'sheanduine, leatsa ní gheobhadsa,
Is dá mbeinnse i mbéal dorais ná beirimse beo ort.

(just one last remark - in Québec, tinned ham is known as 'fesse en can')
Franc ;)


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