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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec 2024 9:38 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Seomra na beatha a cheart a thabhairt air: Can someone advise on the grammar? A cheart? Seomra na beatha is cirte a thabhairt air?


a cheart (or: do cheart) = ba cheart
Seomra na beatha a cheart a thabhairt air. = Living room it should be called.

Direct relative ba can be omitted in Munster (and so just the relative particle a or past particle do remains) .


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PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec 2024 5:53 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Seomra na beatha a cheart a thabhairt air: Can someone advise on the grammar? A cheart? Seomra na beatha is cirte a thabhairt air?


a cheart (or: do cheart) = ba cheart
Seomra na beatha a cheart a thabhairt air. = Living room it should be called.

Direct relative ba can be omitted in Munster (and so just the relative particle a or past particle do remains) .


Thank you. That makes sense now.


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PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2024 4:59 am 
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Page 17-19:

Sin iad na tríocha acra agaibh. 'There ye have the thirty acres'. Here we see the use of the word tríocha (pronounced somewhat like triucha ~ triocha), which is not the traditional form of the word thirty that is commonly used throughout Munster, which would be something similar to na deich (n-)acra is dáichead (where the eclipsis of acra is becoming more and more uncommon, but can still be heard by the older generation), which uses the vigesimal system, which was adopted during the Anglo-Norman invasion, as opposed to the decimal system used elsewhere.
coimíneach[t?] 'commonage'
ar an gcéad dul síos 'first, in the first instance'
píp 'pipe'
teap uisce 'water tap'
Agus nuair a bhí uisce le hól nó chun té nó aon rud mar sin, what does mean in this sentence? Could it be the pronunciation spelling of tae (as I know it is pronounced in Kerry)? 'And when there was water to drink or [to make] tea or something like that'?
is amuigh ar bhruach na habhann a dheinimis sinn fhéin a ní 'it's out on the bank of the river that we had to wash [them]'. Here we can see the use of the construction déan (+ object) + verbal noun being used, instead of the conjugated form of the main verb (i.e. not nífimis fhéin [iad]). The -imis ending would also be pronounced as -imís, AFAK.
nífeadh sí sin ár gcorp, ár ngruaig is ár n-éadaí. I find it interesting that the only noun that is found in the plural here is éadaí despite the fact that it is referring to multiple people. Could it be due to the fact that the group of people are seen as collective, so corp and gruaig are singular instead of plural (in the case of gruaig, not cuid gruaige), but éadaí is plural either way because there are always multiple articles of clothing?
Ní dhein sé aon díobháil dúinn. 'It didn't serve us any harm'
Lem' bhrón. This phrase seems somewhat irregular to me, as in Munster there is a general tendency to avoid lenition of labial consonants after other labial consonants (with the exception of m-, which then sounds like b-, i.e. dom' mháthair > dom' báthair).
tá a lán áiteanna ar fuaid an domhain inniu atá i bhfad níos measa gan uisce ná bia ach ocras is murachadh. What does murachadh mean here?
go bhféacha Dia orthu 'God help them'
ní fhiafraíos. A typo, perhaps. The pronunciation (assuming that the participle is being used instead of níor) would be ní dh'fhiafraíos.
tagtha. This can have two pronunciations: taca and tagatha, the latter more common.
de m'aghaidh. This should really be dem' aghaidh, seeing as the combination of de + mo is spelt as dem' before consonants too by the editor.

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PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2024 1:03 pm 
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Séamus O'Neill wrote:
Agus nuair a bhí uisce le hól nó chun té nó aon rud mar sin, what does mean in this sentence? Could it be the pronunciation spelling of tae (as I know it is pronounced in Kerry)? 'And when there was water to drink or [to make] tea or something like that'?


I’d suppose so, too.

Quote:
nífeadh sí sin ár gcorp, ár ngruaig is ár n-éadaí. I find it interesting that the only noun that is found in the plural here is éadaí despite the fact that it is referring to multiple people. Could it be due to the fact that the group of people are seen as collective, so corp and gruaig are singular instead of plural (in the case of gruaig, not cuid gruaige), but éadaí is plural either way because there are always multiple articles of clothing?


It is usual to use singular with ár, bhur if anybody has exactly one

Féach GGBC:
GGBC wrote:
9.1 Úsáidtear uimhir uatha an ainmfhocail, cibé acu ainmfhocal uimhriúil é
nó a mhalairt
[...]
- ar lorg na n-aidiachtaí sealbhacha iolra ár, bhur, a, nuair nach bhfuil
ach ceann amháin de na rudaí dá dtagraíonn an aidiacht ag gach duine
(rud) atá i gceist: beidh Íosa inár gcroí; ar a n-aigne; fágadh na báid
ar a mbéal fúthu; bhí na saighdiúirí go léir ina luí ar a mbéal is ar a
n-aghaidh
; agus i bhfrásaí mar: ar a gcoiscéim; ar ár gcois

Deirtear fosta inár gcroíthe


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PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2024 3:56 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
It is usual to use singular with ár, bhur if anybody has exactly one

Féach GGBC:
GGBC wrote:
9.1 Úsáidtear uimhir uatha an ainmfhocail, cibé acu ainmfhocal uimhriúil é
nó a mhalairt
[...]
- ar lorg na n-aidiachtaí sealbhacha iolra ár, bhur, a, nuair nach bhfuil
ach ceann amháin de na rudaí dá dtagraíonn an aidiacht ag gach duine
(rud) atá i gceist: beidh Íosa inár gcroí; ar a n-aigne; fágadh na báid
ar a mbéal fúthu; bhí na saighdiúirí go léir ina luí ar a mbéal is ar a
n-aghaidh
; agus i bhfrásaí mar: ar a gcoiscéim; ar ár gcois

Deirtear fosta inár gcroíthe


Go raibh maith agat, a Labhráis

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


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PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2024 7:59 pm 
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I thought you were going to read it with me as I provided notes, but as you are reading it by yourself, I will pursue my own studies.

is amuigh ar bhruach na habhann a dheinimis sinn fhéin a ní 'it's out on the bank of the river that we had to wash [them]

Reply: this is not "we had to wash them". Dheinimís SINN HÉIN a ní - we would wash OURSELVES. We don't always show the reflexive in English, so this could be "we would wash" or "we would have a wash".


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PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2024 8:05 pm 
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Murachadh - I don't know for sure what this is and this could be a silly suggestion, which I am known for. Murchadh in Dinneen's dictionary, derives from a terrorist earl in Irish history, and can be translated as "dire calamities". See thje entry in Dinneen's dictionary. If it's not that, then I don't know. it's a same An Lon Dubh, who is interested in Kerry Irish, rarely frequents the forum. Maybe he could suggest something.


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PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2024 8:36 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Reply: this is not "we had to wash them". Dheinimís SINN HÉIN a ní - we would wash OURSELVES. We don't always show the reflexive in English, so this could be "we would wash" or "we would have a wash".


we used to wash ourselves

dheinimis = we used to do
dhéanfaimis = we would do


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2024 12:11 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Reply: this is not "we had to wash them". Dheinimís SINN HÉIN a ní - we would wash OURSELVES. We don't always show the reflexive in English, so this could be "we would wash" or "we would have a wash".


we used to wash ourselves

dheinimis = we used to do
dhéanfaimis = we would do


No. "Would" in English has a range of meanings, including the past habitual. When I was a boy, I would walk to school every day. "Used to" isn't the same as "would", as if focuses more on the fact that the thing doesn't happen any more, whereas "would" just focuses on the past habitual meaning. See https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... would.151/ for an explanation. This has nothing to do with "would" in conditional sentences.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2024 1:01 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Reply: this is not "we had to wash them". Dheinimís SINN HÉIN a ní - we would wash OURSELVES. We don't always show the reflexive in English, so this could be "we would wash" or "we would have a wash".


we used to wash ourselves

dheinimis = we used to do
dhéanfaimis = we would do


No. "Would" in English has a range of meanings, including the past habitual. When I was a boy, I would walk to school every day. "Used to" isn't the same as "would", as if focuses more on the fact that the thing doesn't happen any more, whereas "would" just focuses on the past habitual meaning. See https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... would.151/ for an explanation. This has nothing to do with "would" in conditional sentences.


Interesting, thank you.
I’ll never learn this language.
Irish is much easier. :)


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