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PostPosted: Mon 03 Apr 2023 6:57 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
mürk wrote:
Seems plausible at first sight.
However, Ó Dónaill came out in 1977, but according to Wikipedia, gaelic types were used until mid-20th century, perhaps no further than 1950s or early 1960s. And it seems to me that one doesn't need to consult dictionaries to use 'sc' instead of 'sg'. That could independently occur to anyone not too entrenched in traditions, as it is the actual way they are pronounced.


Is it? Older speakers in the Munster Gaeltacht have been known to say - I've been told by them - that the pronunciation is sg-.

I think it is clearly /sk/, but unlike k elsewhere, it is not aspirated (with a puff of breath), and so may seem to non-linguists to be like a g. But even Brian Ó Cuív in the Irish of West Muskerry (an incredible source otherwise) stated the pronunciation was with g. I think he must have meant, not a voiced g, but a non-aspirated k. So you see the confusion.

I regard sc as a spelling mistake tout court. Because in any language there are things in the orthography that don't correspond to the pronunciation as such. Like "i mBaile Átha Cliath", where the pronunciation is "a mBleá Cliath", where the "i" is more like an "a". But as this spelling mistake is insisted on by everyone, I don't think the sg spelling is available nowadays, and so when I republished Niamh by Peadar Ua Laoghaire, I used sc.


This touches upon a topic that is also discussed in this interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37hX8NPgjQ, (non-aspirated vs. aspirated consonants). A version of that video for the Irish language would be nice.


Yes, Geoff Lindsey is now England's leading linguist, and has made a great splash with his book English After RP. As he says, in English too, the k in sk (and the t in st and the p in sp) is not aspirated.


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Apr 2023 7:18 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Yes, Geoff Lindsey is now England's leading linguist, and has made a great splash with his book English After RP. As he says, in English too, the k in sk (and the t in st and the p in sp) is not aspirated.


His videos are indeed excellent.


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr 2023 1:12 am 
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For fun, I wanted to try my hand at transcribing and translating this little piece. I understand from previous study and the above commentary that some of the spelling is older and some may be wrong. I'm not so concerned about those things as much as I am understanding a few things.

1. What does "coimhtheach" mean exactly in the phrase "an fhairrge choimhtheach"? I couldn't figure out its exact meaning here.

2. And if a ship is coming from Scotland, why would it be heading northward? (I think I have misunderstood this.)

3. What are the three kingdoms mentioned here? I know about the war of the three kingdoms, Ireland, Scotland, and England. Is the writer referring to the counties of Ireland here? Munster, Leinster, Ulster?

4. Is the last sentence translated correctly?

5. Anything else?

Thank you.

Tim

Táimíd ar an mullach anois agus tá radharc againn ar an bhfairrge mhóir ó thuaidh agus siar, agus ó dheas. Ar ár n-aghaidh ó thuaidh díreach níl le feiscint acht an fhairrge choimhtheach. Is truagh gan a thuilleadh long le feiscint uirthi. Siúd ceann ag teacht a dtuaidh. Is dócha go bhfuil sí ag teacht anall ó Albain. Tá ceann eile ag dul siar. Is mó í go mór ná an long eile. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sí ag dul anonn go h-Aimeirice.
Siúd é thoir thuaidh béal na Sionnainne an abha is mó agus is sia d'a bhfuil ins na trí ríoghachtaibh. Siúd iad thoir cnuic Chiarraidhe.

We are now on the summit and have a view of the great sea to the north and west, and to the south. In front of us just to the north there is nothing to look at but the (harmonious) sea. It's too bad more ships aren't seen on her. One is heading northwards. She's probably coming over from Scotland. Another one is going west. It's quite larger than the other ship. Perhaps she is going over to America.
To the north-east is the mouth of the Shannon, the largest and longest river of the three kingdoms. Kerry's hills are east.


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr 2023 5:53 am 
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1. coimhtheach (pronounced cuíthach) means "wild, foreign". I took "an fhairrge choimhtheach" to mean "the Atlantic Ocean" - the wild, open, rough ocean. Other views would be interesting here.
2. aduaidh means "from the north". "ó thuaidh" means "to the north", where the "ó" is not the same "ó" that means "from".
3. The three kingdoms: England, Scotland and Ireland -- the three kingdoms whose flags are merged in the Union Jack.
4. An fhairrge mhór: the ocean. Fairrge is the traditional spelling, but the pronunciation is farraige. Mhóir is the dative here.
5. níl le feiscint ach: there is nothing to SEE but...
6. A thuilleadh: this is correct here in the sense of "any more"; otherwise it would be "tuilleadh" in Muskerry Irish. I think Muskerry may be the only area to maintain a distinction between tuilleadh and a thuilleadh?
7. Siúd é isn't really translated in your translation. This is a variation of seo é (=sid é) and sin é, siúd é referring to something further away or less direct in your mind. Ó Dónall's dictionary translates siúd é as "yonder". Siúd iad thoir cnuic Chiarraí means "Those yonder to the east are the hills of Kerry".
8. America is Meirice in Munster Irish. The spelling Aimeirice may imply the speaker said it as the English word "America".

Táimíd ar an mullach anois agus tá radharc againn ar an bhfarraige mhóir ó thuaidh agus siar, agus ó dheas. Ar ár n-aghaidh ó thuaidh díreach níl le feiscint ach an fharraige choimhtheach. Is trua gan a thuilleadh long le feiscint uirthi. Siúd ceann ag teacht aduaidh. Is dócha go bhfuil sí ag teacht anall ó Albain. Tá ceann eile ag dul siar. Is mó í go mór ná an long eile. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sí ag dul anonn go Meirice.
Siúd é thoir thuaidh béal na Sionainne an abha is mó agus is sia bhfuil ins na trí ríochtaibh. Siúd iad thoir cnuic Chiarraí.


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr 2023 8:40 am 
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Thank you for your comments and corrections.

For #5, I wanted to avoid the repetition of "see the sea" but I guess it's unavoidable.


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr 2023 4:35 pm 
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Interesting, I never suspected An Fhairrge choimhtheach could mean The Atlantic Ocean. I just supposed it was a dialectal version of 'coimhthíoch" and that the sea just had an unusual look to it on that particular day. More stormy or smth.


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr 2023 4:51 pm 
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De réir FGB 'An fharraige choimhthíoch' = 'the open sea'.


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PostPosted: Sun 16 Apr 2023 2:23 am 
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Errigal wrote:
De réir FGB 'An fharraige choimhthíoch' = 'the open sea'.


Thank you. I missed that. :D


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