Okay. So maybe my ears were wrongly interpreting /u:ᵊ/ as /uə/ in some of those recordings. On the other hand, I was under the impression that glide vowels were only used as a sort of bridge for transitioning between a broad vowel and a slender consonant, or between a slender vowel and a broad consonant. So i wouldn't have expected a glide vowel in a word like 'umhal' since, here, you are going from a broad vowel (ú) to a broad consonant (l). I would expect a glide vowel even less in a word that simply ends in a vowel e.g. 'umha', when pronounced in isolation.

From re-listening to the recordings, I still seem to hear /uə/ in those words that I pointed out above. It sounds to me to be the same vowel that I hear in words that are explicitly spelt as a diphthong e.g. 'uan', 'cuan', 'cuas'. (Although bizzarely, the Connacht speaker pronounces 'cuan' as 'cún'.)



A very large component of dialectical variation seems to have to do with the treatment of lenited consonants. Some dialects seem to go for ultra-lenition in certain situations, whereby the consonant totally disappears, which can then have a knock-on effect on the pronunciation of the preceding vowel. It seems to me that, if wasn't for lenition, the dialects would be significantly closer to each other and debates around pronunciation and orthography wouldn't be as contentious.

I vaguely recall a study from a few years ago that found that native Irish-speaking children from a particular gaeltacht (I can't remember which one) were better able to express themselves in English than in Irish even though Irish was their first language. Also, I remember a native Irish speaker saying to me once that his parents had far better Irish than he did, even though Irish was his first langauge too. What he seemed to be implying was that his range of vocabulary and phraseology was inferior to that of his parents. Possibly the problem is that there are no longer any monoglot Irish speakers and native Irish speakers are now living under the constant shadow of the English language, especially since the advent of television, and now the internet.

Returning to the name Urmhumhain, there are two adjoining baronies of this name in Co. Tipperary - Lower Ormond and Upper Ormond. Lower Ormond is in the extreme north-west corner of Tipperary (which is also the northerly extreme of that county, and of Munster), and Upper Ormond is immediately to the south of it. So the two Ormonds can be described as being in north-west Tipperary. It looks like the only real town in the two Ormonds is Nenagh, lying in the far south of Lower Ormond, near the border with Upper Ormond.

Munster was formally split into two kingdoms - Tuadhmhumhain and Deasmhumhain - in the early 12th century, as a result of the Treaty of Glanmire. It seems to me - from a quick perusal of the internet - that Urmhumhain also came into existence around this time, as a polity within Tuadhmhumhain that was ruled by the Kennedy dynasty, who were styled Lords of Ormond. This Urmhumhain roughly corresponded in territory to the preceding polity of Muscraighe Tíre. From the website http://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/thomond.htm: Síl Cennétich - referred to here in conjunction with Ó Cinnéide (O'Kennedy) of Ormond, originally centered in the Glenomra valley near Killaloe, their lands at one time included much of the baronies of Upper and Lower Ormond in co. Tipperary, formerly part of the more ancient territory of Muscraige Tíre. Even after the arrival of the powerful Butler (Earls of Ormond) in the 13th century, the Kennedys remained an influential family as Gaelic 'lords of Ormond' from the eleventh to the sixteenth centuries, as recorded in The Annals of The Four Masters. The Wikipedia entry for 'O'Kennedy' has: 'Originally seated in Glemor, near Killaloe in Co. Clare, they migrated across the river Shannon to Ormond in Co. Tipperary following pressure from other septs in the region (mainly the O'Briens and the McNamaras) in the 12th century. They soon grew in power to become lords in Ormond from the 11th to 16th centuries. The Annals of the Four Masters described them in 1300 to be "the undisputed Lords of Ormond"'.

In the next century, the Anglo-Norman Butlers arrived, who since 1328 were styled Earls of Ormond. Apparently, the Kennedys succeeded or partially succeeded in expelling the Butlers from Ormond, and the Butlers' eventual seat of power settled upon Kilkenny castle in Kilkenny city. From wikipedia under 'O'Kennedy': The O'Kennedys and their native Irish allies were able to drive the Butler dynasty out from Nenagh Castle in 1391 and set themselves up there (these Butlers moved out to Kilkenny Castle). So it's kind of peculiar how the historically significant Earls of Ormond didn't actually live in Ormond for most of their history. Instead the title seems to have been a legacy of their original seat of power. Even after apparently being expelled from Ormond, they remained or later became very powerful. From wikipedia under 'Butler dynasty': 'The patrimony of the Butlers of Ormond encompassed most of the modern counties of Tipperary, Kilkenny and parts of County Carlow'.

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But what I am curious about is the meaning of 'Urmhumhain'. I thought I read years ago that it meant Munster's Edge or Munster's Border since 'ur' (and it's variant 'or') mean 'edge' or 'border'. That might make some sense in that Lower Ormand is on the northen edge of Munster, although Upper Ormond is completely surrounded by Munster territory. In fact Lower Ormond acts as a protrusion or salient between Co. Galway and south Co. Offaly. (Although I think, historically, what is now south Co. Offaly was originally part of Munster as well.)

However, Wikipedia claims that 'Urmhumhain' means East Munster. Presumably the prefix 'oir' would mean 'east' and that would become 'or' when prefixed to a word starting with a broad consonant. But maybe 'ur' is simply an alteration of 'or'. However, I'm not sure that it makes much sense to call this area East Munster since, although it is just about in the eastern half of Munster, it is located in a far more northerly than easterly position in the context of Munster.

Otoh, here's a curious Wikpedia entry under 'Ormond Lower' that seems to contradict much of what I wrote above and that poses more questions than gives answers: 'The Earl of Ormond wrongly applied the name "Ormond" to two baronies as they were never part of the eastern Kingdom of Ormond; rather they were part of the tuath of Muskerry Tire'. And the entry under 'Kingdom of Ormond' seems to back this up as follows: 'The Kingdom of Ormond (Modern Irish: Urmumhain - "East Munster") was a short-lived kingdom in medieval Ireland. It existed in 12th century AD, comprising the eastern part of Munster, in what is now County Tipperary, with parts of County Kilkenny and County Waterford.' Unfortunately very little other information about this supposed kingdom of Ormond is given.

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As regards pronunciation, logainm.ie has entries for each of the two baronies using the spelling 'Urumhain', indicating that the initial 'mh' in 'Urmhumhain' is silent.

In logainm.ie, there is also a very interesting note under the entry for An tAonach (Nenagh) that indicates that the 'mh' was silent by the late 16th century.

Níl aon sampla de Aonach Urmhumhan ar fáil go dtí an bhliain 1596, tráth ar tagraíodh i ngníomhas talún do ‘Nenagh alias Enaghurron’. Cruthúnas atá sa bhfoirm dheireanach sin, ní amháin go raibh leagan fada an logainm in úsáid an tráth úd ach fós go raibh Urmhumhan (ginideach) á fhuaimniú ar nós an lae inniu, .i. *Urún < Urumhan < Urmhumhan (cf. Tuamhain < Tuadhmhumhain). D’fhonn idirdhealú a dhéanamh idir An tAonach a bhí suite i gceantar Urumhan (‘Ormond’) agus áiteanna eile a raibh an t-ainm sin orthu a rinneadh amhlaidh, ní foláir. Ta cúpla sampla ar fáil i scríbhinní Gaeilge den fhoirm fhada as sin amach...

Lastly, there is also a surname Ormond(e), the Irish form of which is Ó Ruaidh. The anglicisation to Ormond(e) mightn't seem to make much sense at first until the following derivation path is considered: Ó Ruaidh -> Urmhumha (original nominative case form of Urmhumhain) -> Ormond(e). So this is more evidence that the 'mh' is silent.

Muskerry is not in Ormond; it's in Desmond.
Ormond begins in East Cork and continues to Waterford.
There is a translation done in 1956 by Risteárd Ó Foghludha (who was from East Cork) of a work on the last lords of Ormond:

Tiarnaí deiridh Urmhúmhan, The last lords of Ormond /
Dermot F. Gleeson ; Risteárd ó Foghludha d'aistrigh go Gaeilge.

There were a number of Muskerrys in the early middle ages. The tuath of Múscraighe Tíre was situated in north Munster, in an area that approximated to the later lordship of Ormond (ruled by the Ó Cinnéide dynasty), and the later-again baronies of Lower and Upper Ormond in Co. Tipperary, as I describe above. Otoh, what are now the Co. Cork baronies of West & East Muskerry approximate to the former tuath of Múscraighe Mittaine.



From what I can gather, the book 'The last lords of Ormond' by Dermot F. Gleeson relates to the aforementioned Kennedys of Ormond in north Munster.



If such an Ormond existed, I would be interested in knowing more about it.

OK, thank you for the information on the various Muskerry areas.

A Chaoilthe, bíd guthaí sleamhnáin roim chunsainí leathana chómh maith - sa mhír "Sleamhnáin" in The Irish of West Muskerry (1943, le Brian Ó Cuív) do léiríodh gach saghas sleamhnaithe dá bhfuil ann, agus thug sé mar shamplaí "fíoᵊn", "fadhᵊb", "naoᵊfa", "maíoᵊmh", "réaᵊbadh", agus tuilleadh nách iad. Má bhíonn aon tsuím agat i nGaelainn Mhúscraí, ba chóir go dtagfá ar chóip an leabhair seo, agus bíonn sé úsáideach le Gaelainn na Múmhan i gcoitine chómh maith. Is é an scrí amach foghraíochta is coitianta ar "úmhal" ná /u:l/, ach ní hé seo an scrí amach is cúinge (the narrowest transcription), is dócha - is féidir gutha sleamhnáin do mharcáil chómh maith, mar /u:ᵊl/. Ach is /u:l/, go díreach mar sin, a fachtar ar leathanach 265 de Chnósach Focal ó Bhaile Bhúirne do chuir Brian Ó Cuív amach leis. Táim ag cloí le córas foghraíochta do cheap an Caoimheach sa leabhairíní seo, b'fhéidir go mbeadh mion-deifríochtaí i saothair údar eile.