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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Tue 28 Jan 2014 9:36 am 
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Breandán wrote:
An Lon Dubh wrote:
It isn't except for:

:??: Is there a word or two (or three or four) missing there? "used much any more", for example? :??:

Yes actually! Three whole words, they're there now.

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Tue 28 Jan 2014 1:33 pm 
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so when I read things like certain prepositions require the dative, they dont ?

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Tue 28 Jan 2014 4:09 pm 
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There's also fearaibh.


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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 1:57 am 
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Is the dative ending -ibh the historical source of -í in plurals?

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 12:05 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
so when I read things like certain prepositions require the dative, they dont ?

Well, people don't make as much use out of the dative as they once did, so after a preposition you could hear either the nominative or the dative. In the plural it is much more likely that you will hear the nominative unless its a fixed phrase or counting.

In the singular it seems to be pretty random to me and dependent on the person (I know people who always use the dative, others never, with many in between). The only vague rule is that you see it in fixed phrases, e.g. ar lic an dorais on the doorstep, as well with feminine words ending in -óg, e.g. ar an bhfuinneoig and finally there is a list of common words like súl, sál that always seem to use it. However don't be surprised if somebody says leis an leite with the porridge rather than leis an leitin.

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 12:38 pm 
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Damn and here was me hoping their would be a simple system of when and where Datives are or are not used.

correct me if Im wrong dictionary's like Ó'Dónaills dont give the dative do they, just (gs.,pl. gpl, npl ?). So how do you know if a word has a Dative version that some people might use.

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 12:55 pm 
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Here's a simple rule: the dative replaced the nominative so there is no dative 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 2:02 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
Damn and here was me hoping their would be a simple system of when and where Datives are or are not used.

correct me if Im wrong dictionary's like Ó'Dónaills dont give the dative do they, just (gs.,pl. gpl, npl ?). So how do you know if a word has a Dative version that some people might use.

Check the genitive. A genitive of the form slenderise + e, has dative slenderise, e.g:
fuinneog (nominative)
fuinneoige (genitive)
fuinneoig (dative)

A genitive of the form +n or +nn has dative +in and +inn, that is you slenderise the genitive:
Lacha Duck (nominative)
Lachan (genitive)
Lachain (dative)

The only problem is that Ó Dónaill won't always give you the Munster genitive, but ~95% it will give you the right one.

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 2:23 pm 
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For feminine nouns ending in the historical nominative broad, as Lon Dubh says, it's slenderize it; for the masc 1st declension ones it used to be 'u coloring' of vowels -I think it was cat vs. cut, capall vs. capull (among other was to make it). I suppose it's 'cut' in Conemara anyways today if the same pattern holds (dative form becoming the common form)

Others for fem are coll --> coill and lámh -->láimh (but that last one is not stable for phonological reasons, maybe)

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 Post subject: Re: breacaibh
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2014 4:08 pm 
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Brilliant thanks, at least ill understand what im looking at when i come across fixed phrases which include the Dative.

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