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PostPosted: Mon 16 Dec 2013 11:36 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
I feel he's making a very valid point here. When I used to teach English to learners in Asia, lexical and grammatical aspect was a big thing for them which I felt was never really focused on.

As an aside, I noticed that any non-native that had their tense and aspect down pat, has their abstract/concrete, countable/uncountable, single/plural aspects down too. I was like on a cognitive level, the circuits that did for real world quantification, helped with or worked for making temporal distinctions too, so I'd love Patrick and others who understand the language's grammar more than me to delve more into it


The thing is that there are always exceptions and native speakers don't always know why. So when an East Asian mentions countable vs. uncountable nouns - a distinction that is not very important for native speakers of English as we by and large get this right naturally - it could confuse an English speaker. For example - "I went to the cheese fair and there were hundreds of different cheeses to sample" - could all native speakers explain why the usually uncountable noun cheese goes into the plural? We just don't think about it like that. The same goes for Irish - Irish native speakers rarely want to explain their thoughts on subjunctive usage or to explain why they drop lenition in certain instances - and the thing is that we should not assume that they are wrong in what their instinct tells them to do, even if we are armed with all the linguistic terminology and books printed in Dublin saying the opposite.


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PostPosted: Mon 16 Dec 2013 11:38 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
Conemara has long been a proper noun proper, so to speak. I grew up saying the Ukraine, the Lebanon, the Palestine, the Philippines, the US and the UK. ...


The Congo (also Zaire for a long while), The Sudan, both dropped the "the" after independence.

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PostPosted: Mon 16 Dec 2013 11:50 pm 
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Exceptions? 'Cheeses' like 'water', 'wines' etc refers to a type (the cheeses of France, the water of Italy and so on).

Working away looking to map out the nouns of English, I found a large number of sub-types to each of the distinctions mentioned above (for example, in Proper Nouns, simple reference 'Ireland', titles via apposition 'Bishop Browne', city commercial premises 'Independence House', stand-ins 'London' =the British Government) and these were very robust along with the other categories.

The same for aspect. English is tight on that too (at least it seems to me anyways)

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 9:33 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
Braoin, it might make sense to ignore the published version in Irish and start with the English - and for the paragraphs I've done, the English is:

Quote:
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

It had a perfectly round door like a porthole, painted green, with a shiny yellow brass knob in the exact middle. The door opened on to a tube-shaped hall like a tunnel: a very comfortable tunnel without smoke, with panelled walls, and floors tiled and carpeted, provided with polished chairs, and lots and lots of pegs for hats and coats-the hobbit was fond of visitors. The tunnel wound on and on, going fairly but not quite straight into the side of the hill-The Hill, as all the people for many miles round called it-and many little round doors opened out of it, first on one side and then on another.


I've realised my version didn't capture oozy and shiny properly - I was looking at Williams' version too much. I'll rethink those bits. How would you put these paragraphs into Irish?


Seo an bhrí atá le baint agam féin as:
This way would make sense to me:

Bhí hobad ann agus cónaí air i bpoll sa talamh. Níor pholl gránna, salach, fliuch lán cosamar péisteanna agus boladh greallaí ann é seo ná níor pholl tirim, dealbh, gainmheach gan tada ann le suí air ná gan tada ann le n-ithe é seo ach oiread: poll hobaid ab ea é, agus chiallaigh sin gur ann a bhí an compord le fáil.
Bhí doras ciorclach agus dath glasuaine air agus murlán práis le loinnir bhuí díreach ina lár. Ar oscailt an dorais bhí halla de dhéanamh cruinn faoi mar a bheadh tollán ann: tollán an-chompordach gan deatach agus le adhmad ar na ballaí agus leacracha agus cairpéad ar na hurláir ann. Bhí cathaoireacha snasta curtha ar fáil agus neart bacán le haghaidh hataí agus cótaí ann - thaitníodh cuairteoirí go mór leis an hobad. Lean an tollán cas ar aghaidh píosa maith ach ní go díreach i dtreo thaobh an chnoic - ‘An Cnoc’ a ghlaodh muintir uile na háite air - cnoc a bhí breac le doirse beaga ciorclacha ar thaobh amháin de agus a bhí breac leo ar an taobh eile chomh maith.

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 10:01 pm 
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Braoin wrote:
This way would make sense to me:

Bhí hobad ann agus cónaí air i bpoll sa talamh. Níor pholl gránna, salach, fliuch lán cosamar péisteanna agus boladh greallaí ann é seo ná níor pholl tirim, dealbh, gainmheach gan tada ann le suí air ná gan tada ann le n-ithe é seo ach oiread: poll hobaid ab ea é, agus chiallaigh sin gur ann a bhí an compord le fáil.
Bhí doras ciorclach agus dath glasuaine air agus murlán práis le loinnir bhuí díreach ina lár. Ar oscailt an dorais bhí halla de dhéanamh cruinn faoi mar a bheadh tollán ann: tollán an-chompordach gan deatach agus le adhmad ar na ballaí agus leacracha agus cairpéad ar na hurláir ann. Bhí cathaoireacha snasta curtha ar fáil agus neart bacán le haghaidh hataí agus cótaí ann - thaitníodh cuairteoirí go mór leis an hobad. Lean an tollán cas ar aghaidh píosa maith ach ní go díreach i dtreo thaobh an chnoic - ‘An Cnoc’ a ghlaodh muintir uile na háite air - cnoc a bhí breac le doirse beaga ciorclacha ar thaobh amháin de agus a bhí breac leo ar an taobh eile chomh maith.


Braoin, that is much better. There are numerous points in that that bear bringing out. I can't understand why Professor Williams, an Englishman, is allowed to publish translations in Irish without them being edited by native speakers. You can see already that the published book is rubáiste ar fad.

I thought píosa maith sounded more natural there.


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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 10:12 pm 
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I'd really love to read a book by ye! I'd pay cash to see it realized, tho maybe I'm in the minority. A crowdsourced pay system would be great

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec 2013 11:13 pm 
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Braoin wrote:
cnoc a bhí breac le doirse beaga ciorclacha


an-deas

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___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Dec 2013 11:43 am 
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Jay Bee wrote:
Exceptions? 'Cheeses' like 'water', 'wines' etc refers to a type (the cheeses of France, the water of Italy and so on).

Shh... you're undermining the point, which is that the average speaker would struggle to explain the difference if they hadn't been told by an English teacher already. This is why I don't trust native intuition in any language. Talking about crowdfunding, maybe that's the only way to get a decent corpus study going....

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Dec 2013 12:07 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
Conemara has long been a proper noun proper, so to speak. I grew up saying the Ukraine, the Lebanon, the Palestine, the Philippines, the US and the UK. The last three still stand, though many people now drop the article for the first three (however, I do hear Americans... :no: ) say in US, in UK...

My feeling was that the first four were once, as territories or areas (as in the Philippine Islands) part of a longer phrase that got clipped later on

Actually, that in mostly translationese. "The Ukraine" was a half-translation of the Russian for "the borderlands" (according to a BBC News web article I read earlier this year), and "the Lebanon" was derived from a Biblical name featuring the definite article (according to Wikipedia). I've never encountered "the Palestine" before, and Google isn't helping on that one.

It seems to be that there's four modern situations where the article is used with placenames: compound names with generic nouns as head (the United Kingdom, The People's Republic of China etc); plurals (the Netherlands, the Himalayas; and rivers (the Liffy, the Amazon), forests (the Amazon) and deserts (the Sahara.

The plural rule clearly evolved out of the compound nouns rule (hence "the Philippine Islands" becoming "the Philippines"), but it seems like it's taken on a life of its own. Equally you could argue that the rivers and forests rules evolved by the same mechanism, although you'd need to look at old maps to prove it.

In the case of "the Congo", I'd speculate that the article has been borrowed in from the name of the river and/or the forest. The Sudan apparantly originates from an Arabic name with the definite article, so that's translationese as well

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