I've been having some confusion about the copula in identification sentences, hopefully
the wonderful members of this forum can help.

Basically I've been learning a lot about the copula in Kerry, which goes against what some
grammars say but matches what the bigger, more hardcore grammars say.

So when I go to Ó Siadhail and books like it (the old TYI about Munster Irish) I see:

Is é an sagart an fear = The priest is the man
Is é an fear san an sagart = That man is the priest

However Lar's grammar (the site Grammadach na Gaeilge) and Ó Nualláin's
grammar from the thirties both say:

Is é an sagart an fear = The man is the priest
Is é an fear san an sagart = The priest is that man

This is also what some native speakers have told me.

Who, oh mighty forum, is in the right?

N.B. I know for proper names

Is é Seán an sagart = Seán is the priest

My question is only for definite nouns that aren't proper nouns.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

To me, these are right:
Is é an sagart an fear = The man is the priest
Is é an fear san an sagart = The priest is that man

Normally, when both nouns are definite, you use the order:
Is é + predicate + subject.
Ie. the reverse order of the English nouns.

But I think in most cases, both orders would mean more or less the same thing. Like "the man is the priest" and "the priest is the man" are almost the same, so people will understand you anyway.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Yeah that's definitely true. I was told pretty much the same thing by the people in Kerry.
However I am surprised by the amount of grammars that actually get the order wrong. Most
courses on Irish tell you that:

Is é an sagart an fear = The priest is the man

Actually and I know this is a ridiculous technical example, but somebody in Corca Dhuibhne
told me that it makes a sentence in An Bíobla Naofa technical wrong, when Jesus says:

Is é seo mo chorp

This actually means: My body is this. (the bread you see here)

Which kind of implies Jesus is made out of bread. Really it should be:

Is é mo chorp é seo = This (bread) is my body.

(Turns out older translations did say it this way)

Another example:(This was from the same person who
pointed out the other example)

Is é an namhaid an peacadh = (The) Sin is the enemy.

Even though it usually doesn't make a difference, I am surprised by
the amount of courses and grammars that get it wrong.

Go raibh maith agat.

_________________
The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Is é Seán an fear is fearr.

Is é Seán an buaiteoir = Seán is the winner.

Same word-order as English above.

Is é an buaiteoir ná Seán = The winner is Seán.

That last one just doesn't seem right to me without ná. But maybe it is?

It is. At least in Ulster, quite often you don't use the "ná" (which doesn't mean anything, anyway).

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Yeah with proper names it's the same order as English.

In the last example though you have, in a way:

Is é an buiteoir = The winner is it
ná = (where "it" is)
Seán

So,

The winner is it, namely: Seán.

In a way, so it's the same order that Lughaidh had.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

An alternative view:

1. Equation is commutative, i.e., A = B <-> B = A. (Lughaidh has said this above.) Both are correct. Conversely, saying one is wrong and the other is right may actually be incorrect.

2. Irish has a wider variety of copula constructions, some involving three elements instead of just two. It is unlikely that you will get one-to-one mapping between the Irish and English constructions. And even when there is apparent one-to-one correspondence between two languages, usage may vary between the two.

In summary, I think the question may be unresolvable (or at least not resolvable by any simple formula).

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Taking the joy out of the copula... Shades of school maths class

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Irish the Abelian language!



Is dócha go bhfuil an ceart agat, a Bhreadáin!

In fact Ó Nualláin, in his grammar, uses eight different types of formulas! The book is hard to get now so I'll just list them here, apologies
to anybody who finds this stuff mind numbingly boring:

V = The copula itself (Is/Ba)
S = subject (thing you are talking about)
P = predicate (thing you are saying it is)
p = Pronoun that stands in for the predicate

I'm only looking at the cases where the predicate is definite. Despite all the types below
Ó Nualláin says there is only really one rule, that S can never follow V.

Type I: VpPS
The basic type of sentence and the one the others derive from.
Example:

Is é an sagart an fear = The man is the priest
S = an fear
P = an sagart

Is é an namhaid an peacadh = Sin is the enemy.

Really there is no need for the pronoun here, since there is
no need for it to stand for the predicate. Apparently in Old Irish
you didn't put the pronoun here, it was just:
VPS

The pronoun is only here because it came from sentences of type II.
Another last example:

Is é leigheas na lobhar is mó chuireadh ionadh agus alltacht ar gach aoinne.

Here:
S = (an rud) is mó chuireadh ionadh agus alltacht ar gach aoinne
P = leigheas na lobhar

This shows a typical fact, that often the subject has some unmentioned thing
like "an rud" or "an duine" to it.

This also explains why you say é twice:

Is é an sagart an fear san
change an fear san (that man) to é:
Is é an sagart é.

Type II: VpS( /ná/mar/ach)P
This happens when the predicate is too long to come immediately after "Is":
Is é is fada liom go mbeidh an baiste sin déanta

S = (an rud) is fada liom
P = go mbeidh an baiste sin déanta

So the predicate is too long and you put "é" to stand in for it, until you mention it later.

The brackets list a few different particles (including nothing) which are mentioned
before the predicate.

Another:
Is é rud a dhein Íosa ná ceist a chur chúcha
P = ceist a chur chúca
S = (an) rud a dhein Íosa

It's because of saying sentences like this that the "é/í" leaked into type I.

Type III: VpSP
The flip of type I. Example:

Is é an namhaid an peacadh = The enemy is sin.

Apparently it is said differently from type I as well (I wonder could anybody here confirm this).
Type I is said quickly, but this type is said with a small pause after "é" and "an namhaid".

Type IV: PVpS
Here you just want to emphasise the predicate so you put it first.

Tosach an oilc, is é is usa a chosc

P = Tosach an oilc
S = (an rud) is usa a chosc

Type V: PS
Common in seanfhocal, there is no is/ba.

1. Eoin baiste an mac san
2. An rud is annamh is iontach = The thing that is wonderful is the thing that is rare.

S = (an rud) is iontach
P = An rud is annamh

Of course, what is you want to put this into another sentence like "Dúirt sí ...."?
Well since "P" comes first, you have the use the forms when "P" comes first, namely
Type I and Type IV:

Deir an seanfhocal gurb é an rud is annamh is iontach
or
Deir an seanfhocal an rud is annamh gurb é is iontach

Type VI: SP
Mise cailín an Tiarna

S = Mise
P = Cailín an Tiarna

Another example:
Tír gan anam tír gan teanga

Since "S" comes first here, if you want to put this inside another sentence, you use
Type 2:
Deir an seanfhocal gurb é saghas tír gan teanga ná tír gan anam.

Type VII: VpSP
Rare enough. It's just type II, but the little pronoun is ea, not "é/í/iad". It is
used to say "it's so/it's the case/it's thus":

Is ea a dúirt sé "Ba mhaith liom tae" = He said thus/He said as follows "I would like tea"

Type VIII: SVpPs
Here you want to emphasise the Subject, so you put it first. However that means you now need
a little pronoun for it too.

An té a dúirt an chainnt sin, b'é a gceann go léir é = He who said those words was the leader of them all.

S = An té a dúirt an chainnt sin
p = é
P = a gceann go léir
s = é

And that's them all! I hope somebody gets some use out of that and hopefully somebody can tell me if what Ó Nualláin says
make sense!

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal