It is currently Thu 16 Apr 2026 2:13 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: genitive of placenames
PostPosted: Sun 20 Jul 2025 8:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1725
In Graiméar G na B C 9.58, it says:

Cuirtear an dara focal sa ghinideach i logainmneacha áirithe: cathair Chorcaí; Contae Luimnigh.

Notice how unclear this is: the second work goes in the genitive only in certain placenames like Cathair Chorcaí. Why only certain ones?

In an Bíobla Naofa, as published in Maynooth, in John 21:1 we read: Ina dhiaidh sin thaispeáin Íosa é féin arís do na deisceabail ag Muir Thibirias, agus seo mar a thaispeáin:

I suppose there is a difference between "Lake Tiberias" and "the Lake of Tiberias", but why not Muir Thibiriais?

In Genesis 31:21: Theith sé lena a raibh aige agus dʼimigh leis agus ghabh sé thar an Abhainn ag déanamh ar Shliabh Ghileád.

Mount Galaad is not slenderised for the genitive.

Does anyone have a view on this? Would all non-Irish placenames be the ones that are not slenderised in such phrases?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 21 Jul 2025 2:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1966
djwebb2021 wrote:
In Graiméar G na B C 9.58, it says:

Cuirtear an dara focal sa ghinideach i logainmneacha áirithe: cathair Chorcaí; Contae Luimnigh.

Notice how unclear this is: the second work goes in the genitive only in certain placenames like Cathair Chorcaí. Why only certain ones?


"Áirithe" is misleading here.
All such names are in genitive relation. And all placenames having a distinct genitive form (1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th declension) will be declined as such.
Except they are part of noun phrases, e.g. Contae an Dúin vs. Contae Dhún na nGall

Quote:
In an Bíobla Naofa, as published in Maynooth, in John 21:1 we read: Ina dhiaidh sin thaispeáin Íosa é féin arís do na deisceabail ag Muir Thibirias, agus seo mar a thaispeáin:

I suppose there is a difference between "Lake Tiberias" and "the Lake of Tiberias", but why not Muir Thibiriais?

In Genesis 31:21: Theith sé lena a raibh aige agus dʼimigh leis agus ghabh sé thar an Abhainn ag déanamh ar Shliabh Ghileád.

Mount Galaad is not slenderised for the genitive.

Does anyone have a view on this? Would all non-Irish placenames be the ones that are not slenderised in such phrases?


Why should Greek/Hebrew names be in 1st declension in Irish?
Koine Greek genitive of Tiberias would be Tiberiados (3rd declension, d-stem), probably.
But usage of the etymologically corresponding 5th declension form in Irish ("Thibiriad" like "carad") would be strange.

They are more likely all 4th declension in Irish, i.e. no change in genitive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 21 Jul 2025 2:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1725
Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
In Graiméar G na B C 9.58, it says:

Cuirtear an dara focal sa ghinideach i logainmneacha áirithe: cathair Chorcaí; Contae Luimnigh.

Notice how unclear this is: the second work goes in the genitive only in certain placenames like Cathair Chorcaí. Why only certain ones?


"Áirithe" is misleading here.
All such names are in genitive relation. And all placenames having a distinct genitive form (1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th declension) will be declined as such.
Except they are part of noun phrases, e.g. Contae an Dúin vs. Contae Dhún na nGall

Quote:
In an Bíobla Naofa, as published in Maynooth, in John 21:1 we read: Ina dhiaidh sin thaispeáin Íosa é féin arís do na deisceabail ag Muir Thibirias, agus seo mar a thaispeáin:

I suppose there is a difference between "Lake Tiberias" and "the Lake of Tiberias", but why not Muir Thibiriais?

In Genesis 31:21: Theith sé lena a raibh aige agus dʼimigh leis agus ghabh sé thar an Abhainn ag déanamh ar Shliabh Ghileád.

Mount Galaad is not slenderised for the genitive.

Does anyone have a view on this? Would all non-Irish placenames be the ones that are not slenderised in such phrases?


Why should Greek/Hebrew names be in 1st declension in Irish?
Koine Greek genitive of Tiberias would be Tiberiados (3rd declension, d-stem), probably.
But usage of the etymologically corresponding 5th declension form in Irish ("Thibiriad" like "carad") would be strange.

They are more likely all 4th declension in Irish, i.e. no change in genitive.


Thank you. Maybe Maynooth looked at it like that. You can also see the name Liam, which is not declined for the vs and gs in Irish, because it is a loan.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jul 2025 3:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 02 Nov 2023 11:42 pm
Posts: 701
Location: Denver, Colorado
Why is it lena a raibh aige? Shouldn't it just be lena raibh aige?

_________________
I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 25 Jul 2025 4:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1725
Séamus O'Neill wrote:
Why is it lena a raibh aige? Shouldn't it just be lena raibh aige?

You're right, Séamus. I took that from An Bíobla Naofa online at https://www.bible.com/bible/554/GEN.31.ABN - but maybe it wasn't correctly digitised...


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 291 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group