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PostPosted: Sat 25 May 2024 6:55 pm 
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Hey there! The latest scripture that I'm going to learn to speak in Irish is Matthew 5:3-12. I really think the following sounds beautiful when I play the audio for it, but I'm also thinking that the wording differs quite a bit from english KJV that I'm looking at; that doesn't bother me, I'm not a KJV purist.

That being said, if somebody could give me a word for word and/or thought for thought translation of the following, I'd greatly appreciate it.

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As an example of the difference between the Irish and the KJV, notice the second part of the first line:
"mar is leó san rígheacht na bhflathas."

I'm not able to figure out exactly what this means, but I'm thinking it differs quite a bit from the KJV
"for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
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(This was written in Cork Irish btw)

What I would like to have somebody translate into English for me:

Is aoibhinn dos na bochtaibh sa spioraid, mar is leó san rígheacht na bhflathas.

Is aoibhinn do lucht ceannsachta, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh seilbh na talmhan.

Is aoibhinn do lucht dubróin, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh sólás.

Is aoibhinn do’n mhuintir go bhfuil ocras agus tart chun fióraontachta ortha, mar ’s iad a gheóbhaidh a sáith.

Is aoibhinn do lucht na trócaire dhéanamh, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh trócaire.

Is aoibhinn do lucht an chroidhe ghlain, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh radharc ar Dhia.

Is aoibhinn do lucht na síothchána dhéanamh, mar is ortha tabharfar clann Dé.

Is aoibhinn do’n mhuintir a dh’fuilingeann crádh ar son fióraontachta, mar is leó san rígheacht na bhflathas.

Is aoibhinn daoibh-se nuair a déanfar spídiú oraibh agus ciapadh, agus an uile shaghas tromaidheachta éithigh, mar gheall orm-sa; Bíodh móráil agus

gáirdeachas oraibh, mar is mór é bhúr luacht-saothair ins na flathais; óir sin mar a ciapadh na fáidhe rómhaibh.


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 10:33 am 
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Main difference to KJB: 2 and 3 (Matthew 5:4 and 5:5) are reversed.

Verbatim translation:

Is aoibhinn dos na bochtaibh sa spioraid, mar is leó san rígheacht na bhflathas.

is blissful to the poor (dative plural) in-the spirit, b/c is with-those (= is their’s) (the) kingdom of the heavens

Is aoibhinn do lucht ceannsachta, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh seilbh na talmhan.

is blissful to people of meekness (= the meek), b/c is they that will get (the) possession of the land

Is aoibhinn do lucht dubróin, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh sólás.

is blissful to people of grief, b/c is they that will get consolation

Is aoibhinn do’n mhuintir go bhfuil ocras agus tart chun fióraontachta ortha, mar ’s iad a gheóbhaidh a sáith.

Is blissfull to-the folk that is hunger and thirst towards righteousness on-them, b/c is they that will get their fill

Is aoibhinn do lucht na trócaire dhéanamh, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh trócaire.

is blissful to (the) people of the mercy (to) do (= the mercy-doers), b/c is they that will get mercy

Is aoibhinn do lucht an chroidhe ghlain, mar isiad a gheóbhaidh radharc ar Dhia.

is blissful to (the) people of the heart clean, b/c is they that will get sight on God

Is aoibhinn do lucht na síothchána dhéanamh, mar is ortha tabharfar clann Dé.

is blissful to (the) people of the peace (to) do (= the peacemakers), b/c is on-them (that) will-one-give (= will be called) children of God

Is aoibhinn do’n mhuintir a dh’fuilingeann crádh ar son fióraontachta, mar is leó san rígheacht na bhflathas.

is blissful to-the folk that suffers torment on sake of righteousness, b/c is with-those (the) kingdom of the heavens

Is aoibhinn daoibh-se nuair a déanfar spídiú oraibh agus ciapadh, agus an uile shaghas tromaidheachta éithigh, mar gheall orm-sa; Bíodh móráil agus

is blissful to-YE when that will-one-make aspersion on ye and harassment, and the all kind of blaming of lying, on account of ME; Be pride and …

gáirdeachas oraibh, mar is mór é bhúr luacht-saothair ins na flathais; óir sin mar a ciapadh na fáidhe rómhaibh.

… rejoice on-ye, b/c is great it your reward-for-labour in the heavens, b/c of that as one-harassed the prophets before-ye


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 4:34 pm 
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Hmm.. So is bhflathas and neamh just two different words for heaven? Is there some slight difference in the connotation of using one or the other?

Thank you so much for your time and expertise, it is greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 7:53 pm 
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msv133 wrote:
Hmm.. So is bhflathas and neamh just two different words for heaven? Is there some slight difference in the connotation of using one or the other?


Flathas (Standard: flaitheas) actually means realm, kingdom.
It is related to flaith = a prince, a lord, a ruler

Its plural with the definite article na flathais (na flaithis), "the realms", is used figuratively in the sense of "heaven". It is used only religiously. (na bhflathas is genitive plural)

Neamh can mean sky, too.


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 10:12 pm 
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Awesome. What about "aoibhinn"? Multiple places are telling me this translates to "delightful", which seems like a step down from "blessed" in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2024 9:33 pm 
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Well, I’d have expected "beannaithe" as it is in some translations.
But beannaithe < benedicti, not< "beati", as it is in the Latin Vulgata. Beati, Sing. beatus means "made happy".
In the original Greek, there is "makárioi" (lucky, happy, fortunate)

I think, aoibhinn is very concrete what "blessed" means in context: being full of bliss and delight.
In An Bíobla Naofa, there is méanar (happy, fortunate).


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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2024 2:27 pm 
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Do you have any idea why the translator started a few of the lines with

"Is aoibhinn do’n mhuintir"

and the majority with

"Is aoibhinn do lucht"


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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2024 3:46 pm 
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Because "lucht" doesn't refer to people without a suitable noun or noun phrase in genitive case as an attribute:

simple nouns:
lucht ceannsachta = meek ones (ceansacht = meekness)
lucht dubróin = grievers (dubrón = grief)
lucht an chroidhe ghlain = the people of the pure heart (an croí glan = the pure heart)

verbal noun phrases:
lucht na trócaire (a) dhéanamh = the mercy-makers (an trócaire a dhéanamh = to make the mercy)
lucht na síothchána (a) dhéanamh = the peace-makers (an tsíocháin a dhéanamh = to make the peace)
lucht na cáise a dhéanamh = the cheesemakers (an cháis a dhéanamh = to make the cheese)

without a noun or noun phrase but a relative clause as an attribute:

an mhuintir go bhfuil ocras agus tart chun fióraontachta ortha = the people who have hunger and thirst for righteousness
an mhuintir a dh’fuilingeann crádh ar son fióraontachta = the people who suffer torment for righteousness

lucht a d’fhuilingíonn ... doesn’t make sense.
Lucht alone means charge, load, cargo, so "a load that suffers"


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