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 Post subject: Translation for Epitaph
PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 1:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue 21 May 2024 12:41 pm
Posts: 5
Hi there,
I'm looking to translate the following sentence to Irish Gaelic: 'In Loving Memory'.
The translation I get from Google Translate is: i gcuimhne grámhar
Is this correct? if not, can you please provide the correct translation.
Many Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Elias


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1743
Elias wrote:
Hi there,
I'm looking to translate the following sentence to Irish Gaelic: 'In Loving Memory'.
The translation I get from Google Translate is: i gcuimhne grámhar
Is this correct? if not, can you please provide the correct translation.
Many Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Elias

No, no one would probably say so.

It is:
i ndilchuimhne

or with dots:
i ndilċuiṁne

in Cló Gaelach
i ndilċuiṁne

https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/dilchuimhne dilchuimhne = loving memory
https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/dil dil = beloved, dear
https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/cuimhne cuimhne = memory


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 135
Elias wrote:
Hi there,
I'm looking to translate the following sentence to Irish Gaelic: 'In Loving Memory'.
The translation I get from Google Translate is: i gcuimhne grámhar
Is this correct? if not, can you please provide the correct translation.
Many Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Elias


The convention is to say 'I ndilchuimhne ar'. 'Cuimhne' means 'memory'; 'dil' is an adjective used as a prefix, which means 'loving' or 'dear'; 'ar' means 'on' but is used in this context where 'of' would be used in English. Note 'ar' causes lenition of the name that follows.

For instance: 'I ndilchuimhne ar Phól Ó Murchú' means 'In loving memory of Pól Ó Murchú'.

If there is more than one name, you could say 'I ndilchuimhne' once, and then just have 'ar' before each name. For example:

I ndilchuimhne ar Phól Ó Murchú
agus ar Sheán Ó Murchú.

Or sometimes, people just have 'I ndilchuimhne ar' at the very top of the gravestone, and then just list the names underneath (without any lenition of the names).

Or sometimes, people just have 'I ndilchuimhne' at the very top of the gravestone, and then just list the names underneath, so that the word 'ar' isn't used at all.

Here are some examples from a Google search. Note most of these examples spell 'ndil' and 'chuimhne' as two separate words, or spell them with a hyphen between them, which I think goes against the standard spelling convention. Also, a lot of the examples have 'díl' (with a fada), instead of 'dil'. This goes against the dictionary spelling.

https://annaghdownheritage.ie/wp-conten ... dstone.jpg
https://historicgraves.com/drishane/co-drsh-0382/grave
https://historicgraves.com/kilboy/tn-klby-0043/grave
https://historicgraves.com/st-lachtain- ... 0183/grave
https://historicgraves.com/old-pallas/li-opls-071/grave
https://historicgraves.com/st-mary-s-ro ... -492/grave
https://historicgraves.com/church-nativ ... 0093/grave
https://historicgraves.com/holy-cross/c ... 0205/grave
https://readingthesigns.weebly.com/blog/the-coat-rests

(Edit: I had assumed your request was in the context of a gravestone but maybe that's not the case.)


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue 21 May 2024 12:41 pm
Posts: 5
Thank you very much. Yes it's for a headstone.

But I noticed on one of the pictures. The reading was:
I NDHIL CHUIMHNE AR
There is space between in the middle of NDHILCHUIMHNE
in your reply there is no space

Are both correct?


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 135
Elias wrote:
Thank you very much. Yes it's for a headstone.

But I noticed on one of the pictures. The reading was:
I NDHIL CHUIMHNE AR
There is space between in the middle of NDHILCHUIMHNE
in your reply there is no space

Are both correct?


First please note that the spelling on that headstone is incorrect. It should read 'ndil', not 'ndhil' i.e. there should be no h.

As I mentioned above, the standard convention is for there to be no space i.e. it should be 'ndilchuimhne'. I'm not sure why a lot of the headstones have a space. Maybe it was formerly acceptable to do it that way (i.e. prior to the spelling reform of the 1940s).


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 415
Location: Corcaigh
Elias wrote:
Thank you very much. Yes it's for a headstone.

But I noticed on one of the pictures. The reading was:
I NDHIL CHUIMHNE AR
There is space between in the middle of NDHILCHUIMHNE
in your reply there is no space

Are both correct?


Firstly, your spelling here is incorrect. There should be no h after the d in ndil.

Secondly, though dil and cuimhne are two discrete words, where an adjective precedes a noun in Irish orthography, as is the case here, the two are typically written as a single word. You're right in noticing that the two are not uncommonly separated by a space, I don't know if this is a tolerated variant in the orthography of any regional dialect, but I suspect it is simply a common mistake. Whatever the case, the correct transcription is as Labhrás has given you:

i ndilchuimhne

Note that this is all in lower case. If you want to capitalise it, the following is the correct way to do so:

I nDilchuimhne

And, even if you intend to render it in "all caps", the n would typically still be left small in the orthography:

I nDILCHUIMHNE


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1200
Ade wrote:
Elias wrote:
Thank you very much. Yes it's for a headstone.

But I noticed on one of the pictures. The reading was:
I NDHIL CHUIMHNE AR
There is space between in the middle of NDHILCHUIMHNE
in your reply there is no space

Are both correct?


Firstly, your spelling here is incorrect. There should be no h after the d in ndil.

Secondly, though dil and cuimhne are two discrete words, where an adjective precedes a noun in Irish orthography, as is the case here, the two are typically written as a single word. You're right in noticing that the two are not uncommonly separated by a space, I don't know if this is a tolerated variant in the orthography of any regional dialect, but I suspect it is simply a common mistake. Whatever the case, the correct transcription is as Labhrás has given you:

i ndilchuimhne

Note that this is all in lower case. If you want to capitalise it, the following is the correct way to do so:

I nDilchuimhne

And, even if you intend to render it in "all caps", the n would typically still be left small in the orthography:

I nDILCHUIMHNE


Well, surely a space is not acceptable here. If you go back far enough, it could be hypenated: i ndil-chuimhne.


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 415
Location: Corcaigh
djwebb2021 wrote:
Well, surely a space is not acceptable here. If you go back far enough, it could be hypenated: i ndil-chuimhne.


If you go back far enough spacing wasn't even used consistently to separate lexical words, only stressed units - and even then, with exceptions.

Back in the modern day, I'm inclined to be more descriptive than prescriptive. Particularly so when it comes to orthographic practice, as I see it only as a convention, and not some sort of linguistic ground-truth. I'm not going to dismiss the possibility perfectly fluent native speakers might use either spacing or hyphenation in this case, especially when there is so much evidence of spacing being used. I am inclined to strongly recommend not using spacing, however, as the correctness of this can hardly be debated.


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2024 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue 21 May 2024 12:41 pm
Posts: 5
Thank you guys for all your help.
God Bless


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