English word for the Irish Langauge

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Ade wrote:

So then, assumedly, they would have a similar pronunciation tendency in Irish?

No, they say e: in Irish.

It's like djwebb2021 said, they know English /ei/ is not the same as /e:/ and make another sound instead. This would only be people in their 70s or more.

silmeth · **Joined:** Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm **Posts:** 279

tiomluasocein wrote:

I remember seeing a video of some native speakers over near Galway chatting away and then looking at this American girl as one of them excused himself in English for being rude, then asking her "Do you understand Gaelic?" I was a little surprised to hear him refer to it that way, having gotten so used to it being called Irish.

In some conversations with people who are unfamiliar with the language, I usually have to clarify by saying "Irish Gaelic as opposed to Scottish Gaelic" and then go on to say "It's mostly referred to now as Irish and the Scottish version is referred to as Gaelic." I don't know how true that is but it seems to assuage the curiosity of the person listening.

I was in Inis Mór about a month ago and took a bus trip to Dún Aonghusa (and walked back to Cill Rónáin later) – the driver (a local man who I assume is a native speaker) talked about schools and children in the island and repeatedly said things like “the children they are all learning through the Gaelic language” – until we passed the summer Gaeltach school hosting language courses for children from outside the Gaeltacht – there he first said “they come here to learn the Gaelic language” after which he corrected himself “that is, the Irish language”. I find it funny he chose to say “Irish” specifically when referring to non-native speakers and that this correction didn’t cross his mind earlier when he was talking about the local native population.

Now, this was in a very touristy setting – so you could think that’s eg. to accommodate Americans and other foreigners. But there are many recordings of native speakers calling the language “Gaelic” when speaking English on Youtube.

Moya Brennan (Clannad singer) consistently says “Gaelic” here on Irish television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsI-uDknkRY
Eamonn Mac Ruarí singing a “Gaelic song”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolHuE_2P9c
another man (Co. Galway?) saying “all the names, they’re all Gaelic”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=deskt ... Ata8&t=92s
Seosamh Ó hÉanaí having a “Gaelic version” of a song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87v_z-4uaII

etc. etc. etc.

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1758

silmeth wrote:

tiomluasocein wrote:

I remember seeing a video of some native speakers over near Galway chatting away and then looking at this American girl as one of them excused himself in English for being rude, then asking her "Do you understand Gaelic?" I was a little surprised to hear him refer to it that way, having gotten so used to it being called Irish.

In some conversations with people who are unfamiliar with the language, I usually have to clarify by saying "Irish Gaelic as opposed to Scottish Gaelic" and then go on to say "It's mostly referred to now as Irish and the Scottish version is referred to as Gaelic." I don't know how true that is but it seems to assuage the curiosity of the person listening.

I was in Inis Mór about a month ago and took a bus trip to Dún Aonghusa (and walked back to Cill Rónáin later) – the driver (a local man who I assume is a native speaker) talked about schools and children in the island and repeatedly said things like “the children they are all learning through the Gaelic language” – until we passed the summer Gaeltach school hosting language courses for children from outside the Gaeltacht – there he first said “they come here to learn the Gaelic language” after which he corrected himself “that is, the Irish language”. I find it funny he chose to say “Irish” specifically when referring to non-native speakers and that this correction didn’t cross his mind earlier when he was talking about the local native population.

Now, this was in a very touristy setting – so you could think that’s eg. to accommodate Americans and other foreigners. But there are many recordings of native speakers calling the language “Gaelic” when speaking English on Youtube.

Moya Brennan (Clannad singer) consistently says “Gaelic” here on Irish television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsI-uDknkRY
Eamonn Mac Ruarí singing a “Gaelic song”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolHuE_2P9c
another man (Co. Galway?) saying “all the names, they’re all Gaelic”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=deskt ... Ata8&t=92s
Seosamh Ó hÉanaí having a “Gaelic version” of a song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87v_z-4uaII

etc. etc. etc.

Great links. I see you're right.
That's why I put the note in my edition of Mo Scéal Féin - to counteract the nonsensical statement of Titley. It is NOT offensive to call Irish "Gaelic" and those who claim it is need to be told to crawl back under their stones....

Ade · **Posted:** Sat 16 Dec 2023 3:52 pm

djwebb2021 wrote:

silmeth wrote:

tiomluasocein wrote:

I remember seeing a video of some native speakers over near Galway chatting away and then looking at this American girl as one of them excused himself in English for being rude, then asking her "Do you understand Gaelic?" I was a little surprised to hear him refer to it that way, having gotten so used to it being called Irish.

In some conversations with people who are unfamiliar with the language, I usually have to clarify by saying "Irish Gaelic as opposed to Scottish Gaelic" and then go on to say "It's mostly referred to now as Irish and the Scottish version is referred to as Gaelic." I don't know how true that is but it seems to assuage the curiosity of the person listening.

I was in Inis Mór about a month ago and took a bus trip to Dún Aonghusa (and walked back to Cill Rónáin later) – the driver (a local man who I assume is a native speaker) talked about schools and children in the island and repeatedly said things like “the children they are all learning through the Gaelic language” – until we passed the summer Gaeltach school hosting language courses for children from outside the Gaeltacht – there he first said “they come here to learn the Gaelic language” after which he corrected himself “that is, the Irish language”. I find it funny he chose to say “Irish” specifically when referring to non-native speakers and that this correction didn’t cross his mind earlier when he was talking about the local native population.

Now, this was in a very touristy setting – so you could think that’s eg. to accommodate Americans and other foreigners. But there are many recordings of native speakers calling the language “Gaelic” when speaking English on Youtube.

Moya Brennan (Clannad singer) consistently says “Gaelic” here on Irish television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsI-uDknkRY
Eamonn Mac Ruarí singing a “Gaelic song”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolHuE_2P9c
another man (Co. Galway?) saying “all the names, they’re all Gaelic”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=deskt ... Ata8&t=92s
Seosamh Ó hÉanaí having a “Gaelic version” of a song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87v_z-4uaII

etc. etc. etc.

Great links. I see you're right.
That's why I put the note in my edition of Mo Scéal Féin - to counteract the nonsensical statement of Titley. It is NOT offensive to call Irish "Gaelic" and those who claim it is need to be told to crawl back under their stones....

I don't have a copy of Titley's translation of Cré na Cille. Does he actually suggest that it's "offensive" to refer to Irish as Gaelic, or did he give some other reasoning?

I do recall speaking with a sociolinguist who suggested that the move towards referring to "Irish" rather than "Gaelic" may have been the result of a general social movement to make the language seem less rustic, rather than deliberate political effort. i.e. the term "Gaelic" had negative associations in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but "Irish" was seen as more neutral, so people were happy to adopt it instead. Whatever the catalyst, I suppose in this context one might potentially perceive a reference to "Gaelic" rather than "Irish" as being offensive, but I don't think anybody really associates the language with poverty etc. anymore. I'm inclined to think that, even if somebody did intend to conjure up negative connotations by referencing "Gaelic" instead of "Irish", most people hearing this would lack the context to know it was meant to be some sort of slight.

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Titley writes the following in the intro:

Quote:

Just in case of ambiguity, “Irish” here refers to the Irish language, and “Irish literature” refers to writing in the Irish language, just as “English literature” generally refers to that which is written in English, or “Spanish literature” to that which is written in Spanish. The term is linguistic and not geographical. “Irish” is sometimes erroneously referred to as “Gaelic.” The Irish language should never be referred to as “Gaelic” because doing so is historically, socially, formally, and linguistically wrong. “Gaelic” is now correctly applied to the principal historical language of Scotland, although it also was referred to (in English) as “Irish” for most of its history. The distinction is not subtle: “Irish” refers to the native language of Ireland, and “Gaelic” refers to the major native language of Scotland, although the term came into common usage only in the past two hundred years, or less.

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Well even where I am from in rural Ireland people will say Gaelic.

My impression is that "Gaelic" was the usual term in rural Ireland in my grandparents' time and the use of "Irish" spread through the education system from Dublin.

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1758

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Titley writes the following in the intro:

Quote:

Just in case of ambiguity, “Irish” here refers to the Irish language, and “Irish literature” refers to writing in the Irish language, just as “English literature” generally refers to that which is written in English, or “Spanish literature” to that which is written in Spanish. The term is linguistic and not geographical. “Irish” is sometimes erroneously referred to as “Gaelic.” The Irish language should never be referred to as “Gaelic” because doing so is historically, socially, formally, and linguistically wrong. “Gaelic” is now correctly applied to the principal historical language of Scotland, although it also was referred to (in English) as “Irish” for most of its history. The distinction is not subtle: “Irish” refers to the native language of Ireland, and “Gaelic” refers to the major native language of Scotland, although the term came into common usage only in the past two hundred years, or less.

I'm afraid Titley comes across to me as a giant tool!

Ade · **Posted:** Sun 17 Dec 2023 12:11 am

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Titley writes the following in the intro:

Quote:

Just in case of ambiguity, “Irish” here refers to the Irish language, and “Irish literature” refers to writing in the Irish language, just as “English literature” generally refers to that which is written in English, or “Spanish literature” to that which is written in Spanish. The term is linguistic and not geographical. “Irish” is sometimes erroneously referred to as “Gaelic.” The Irish language should never be referred to as “Gaelic” because doing so is historically, socially, formally, and linguistically wrong. “Gaelic” is now correctly applied to the principal historical language of Scotland, although it also was referred to (in English) as “Irish” for most of its history. The distinction is not subtle: “Irish” refers to the native language of Ireland, and “Gaelic” refers to the major native language of Scotland, although the term came into common usage only in the past two hundred years, or less.

Thanks for the clarification. He's certainly very insistent that it's wrong to refer to the language as "Gaelic", but at least by my reading of this it doesn't seem like he's suggesting it's offensive, as djwebb suggested.

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Well even where I am from in rural Ireland people will say Gaelic.

My impression is that "Gaelic" was the usual term in rural Ireland in my grandparents' time and the use of "Irish" spread through the education system from Dublin.

I'm inclined to suspect your impression is correct based on the Irish people I've heard referring it to as one or the other, Irish or Gaelic. Titley's wording here seems to imply that he's making his argument from the perspective that Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are distinct languages, and that this ought to be reflected in the names applied to these distinct languages.

This doesn't seem to be reflected in actual usage of the term "Gaelic", however, and in lieu of any evidence to support his argument that it is "historically, socially, formally, and linguistically wrong" I'm inclined to suggest this is a matter of Titley's own opinion. It may be a well considered opinion, one based on academic or socio-political conventions, but it's not clearly based on any quantitative assessment of which term is typically utilised and by whom.

Forum rules

English word for the Irish Langauge

Who is online