English word for the Irish Langauge

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1758

Elizabeth I's primer of Irish can be seen here: https://www.isos.dias.ie/MARSH/Irish_Primer.html On p25 the English has "cann you speake Iryshe?" and the Irish is "in eol duit gaelag do lauairt?", which strikes me as not the best way of phrasing it. An eól duit is talking about knowledge of a fact, right?

The primer is from 1564, and uses the first ever typeface created for Irish.

Ade · **Posted:** Tue 12 Dec 2023 12:15 am

djwebb2021 wrote:

Yes, it was referred to as Irish usually even then - and I think it has basically always been called Irish as its main name in the English language. When Q. Elizabeth I had a primer drawn up for her in the 1570s, it was a primer of Irish, not Gaelic. Donovan's 1845 grammar was a Grammar of the Irish Language.

But the revival organisation was the Gaelic League, and their journal was the Gaelic Journal. Gaelic really refers to the unity of Gaelic, in Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man, rather than one specific national form, although the use of it in Scotland to refer to just Scottish Gaelic has its own specific justification (Gaelic vs. Scots). I think you could say Irish is a Gaelic language, not the Gaelic language, but use of "Gaelic" as a term by native speakers is not wrong as such.

It seems to be that Irish/Iryshe and Gaelic were interchangeable, though. Scottish Gaelic used to be referred to as Ershe (though I think it's considered derogatory now). Nevertheless, it can be found in this stanza from Scenes and Legends of the North of Scotland (1869) in reference to the speech of a gathering of Highlanders:

Fu’ loud in Ershe they begowt to clatter,
And rouped like revin and ruke.

What's interesting about it to me is that in the Modern day "Irish" is used to specify "Irish Gaelic, and no other variety" as if to establish it as a language in its own right, though it seems it used be just as general as "Gaelic", which seems to imply the opposite, that the varieties are connected so closely as to not represent distinct languages at all, but only dialects.

djwebb2021 wrote:

Elizabeth I's primer of Irish can be seen here: https://www.isos.dias.ie/MARSH/Irish_Primer.html On p25 the English has "cann you speake Iryshe?" and the Irish is "in eol duit gaelag do lauairt?", which strikes me as not the best way of phrasing it. An eól duit is talking about knowledge of a fact, right?

The primer is from 1564, and uses the first ever typeface created for Irish.

Another product of that committee in Dublin, no doubt! :darklaugh:

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1758

Erse, as well.

tiomluasocein · **Joined:** Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm **Posts:** 687

I remember seeing a video of some native speakers over near Galway chatting away and then looking at this American girl as one of them excused himself in English for being rude, then asking her "Do you understand Gaelic?" I was a little surprised to hear him refer to it that way, having gotten so used to it being called Irish.

In some conversations with people who are unfamiliar with the language, I usually have to clarify by saying "Irish Gaelic as opposed to Scottish Gaelic" and then go on to say "It's mostly referred to now as Irish and the Scottish version is referred to as Gaelic." I don't know how true that is but it seems to assuage the curiosity of the person listening.

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

I've heard native speakers from all three provinces refer to the language as Gaelic in English, but they tend to be older. People younger than sixty will most likely say Irish due to the education system.

In Kerry sometimes when they refer to it in English they say "Gallic".

Ade · **Posted:** Wed 13 Dec 2023 3:59 pm

An Lon Dubh wrote:

In Kerry sometimes when they refer to it in English they say "Gallic".

Pronounced the same Scottish "Gaelic"? That's interesting. I wonder why?

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Ade wrote:

Pronounced the same Scottish "Gaelic"?

Pretty much.

Ade wrote:

That's interesting. I wonder why?

I think it's just the way they say the "ay" sound when speaking English. They say something halfway between "ay" and "ah". This is for older Irish speakers.

Ade · **Posted:** Wed 13 Dec 2023 10:53 pm

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Ade wrote:

Pronounced the same Scottish "Gaelic"?

Pretty much.

I finally have a counter-example to give when some smartarse tells me "GAH-lick only means Scottish Gaelic!" :LOL:

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Ade wrote:

That's interesting. I wonder why?

I think it's just the way they say the "ay" sound when speaking English. They say something halfway between "ay" and "ah". This is for older Irish speakers.

So then, assumedly, they would have a similar pronunciation tendency in Irish?

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1758

Ade wrote:

So then, assumedly, they would have a similar pronunciation tendency in Irish?

Maybe they think the English diphthongal /ei/ is not exactly the same as the Irish /e:/ and so are reluctant to put the full Anglo diphthong in there?

Bungus mac · **Joined:** Wed 17 May 2023 3:47 am **Posts:** 22

It feels to me, from the ubiquity of the canned response, "Actually it's not called Gaelic, it is called ____" That this is some kind of conditioned response. I suspect a school/Dublin-castle Irish establishment spirit in this.

I have recently taken to just calling it all Gaelic or Gáidhlig depending on the company present. The whole thing seems like a cultivated non-issue unless discussing it in academic terms.

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