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 Post subject: mar a ndúirt sé
PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug 2022 5:57 pm 
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I read (like every Sabbath ;)) An Bíobla Naofa.
There it came to pass that I found this (Gníomhartha / Acts 20:35)

Quote:
Chuir mé ar bhur súile daoibh i gcónaí gur ag obair mar sin ba cheart cabhrú leis na laga agus cuimhneamh ar ráiteas úd an Tiarna mar a ndúirt sé gur mó is méanar rud a thabhairt uait ná rud a fháíl.

In English (KJB):
Quote:
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

mar a ndúirt sé vs. how he said
Why is there eclipsis?

I’d expect mar a dúirt sé (and other Bible versions actually have mar adubhairt sé)
I’d translate mar a ndúirt sé rather as "where he said". Where? In his words?

Peadar Ua Laoghaire’s version:
Quote:
Tá gach aon nídh taisbeánta agam daoibh, gur ag obair ar an gcuma san is ceart dúinn fóirithint ar na daoine laga, agus cuimhneamh ar bhriathar an Tighearna Íosa mar go ndubhairt sé féin: Is mó an t-aoibhneas go mór rud a bhronnadh ná rud a ghlacadh.

mar go ndubhairt sé = because/for he said

That makes more sense because of:
Latin: quoniam ipse dixit = since he himself said
Greek original: ὅτι αὐτὸς εἶπεν = since he said

And some other English versions have "because" or "for"


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 Post subject: Re: mar a ndúirt sé
PostPosted: Sat 20 Aug 2022 7:12 pm 
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This is common in Ua Laoghaire's writings, even if in that particular passage he doesn't use it (not forgetting that Gerald O'Nolan edited the Acts of the Apostles and may have imposed his own grammar).

In Acts 28 near the end (no verse numbers in my file), there is this:
"Is maith adubhairt an Spioraid Naomh é le n-ár n-aithreachaibh tré bhéal an fháidh Isáias, Mar a ndeir sé: Imthigh ag triall ar an bpobul san agus abair leo:...."
And "Ionus go gcómhlíonfaí an nídh adubhradh tré Isáias fáidh mar a ndeir sé" and numerous other examples.

Ua Loaghaire does have "mar a dubhairt" in many passages, as well as "mar a ndubhairt" in others. I think this may reflect contamination from the use of "mar a +Eclipsis" to mean "where". And these examples above may be parsed as "where". Is maith adubhairt an Spioraid é, mar a ndeir sé - "well did the spirit say it [in that passage] where he says...."

In your example, "cuimhneamh ar ráiteas úd an Tiarna mar a ndúirt sé gur ", "ráiteas úd... mar a ndúirt". The saying... where he said.

So it is fundamentally an indirect relative.


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 Post subject: Re: mar a ndúirt sé
PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2022 9:25 am 
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It is funny that three versions of mar occur in different translations:
  • mar a dúirt sé, how he said
  • mar a ndúirt sé, where he said
  • mar go ndúirt sé, because he said


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 Post subject: Re: mar a ndúirt sé
PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2022 10:21 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
It is funny that three versions of mar occur in different translations:
  • mar a dúirt sé, how he said
  • mar a ndúirt sé, where he said
  • mar go ndúirt sé, because he said


I don't think it's just that "mar" can mean "where", but also that there is cross influence from the use of "mar" to mean where, so "mar a nduairt sé" means "as he said", but under crossinfluence from the where use. This is mainly only seen with the verb abair as far as I can tell.


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 Post subject: Re: mar a ndúirt sé
PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2022 10:45 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
It is funny that three versions of mar occur in different translations:
  • mar a dúirt sé, how he said
  • mar a ndúirt sé, where he said
  • mar go ndúirt sé, because he said


I don't think it's just that "mar" can mean "where", but also that there is cross influence from the use of "mar" to mean where, so "mar a nduairt sé" means "as he said", but under crossinfluence from the where use. This is mainly only seen with the verb abair as far as I can tell.


Interesting
There’s another form with the meaning "how he said" – at least acc. to GGBC – without mar but with a comprehensive relative pronoun, forainm coibhneasta réamhtheachtach, meaning otherwise "all that".
a ndúirt sé = mar a dúirt sé

Could this play a role here?
mar a ndúirt sé = lit. "as that-what said he"


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 Post subject: Re: mar a ndúirt sé
PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2022 11:16 am 
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Posts: 490
Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
It is funny that three versions of mar occur in different translations:
  • mar a dúirt sé, how he said
  • mar a ndúirt sé, where he said
  • mar go ndúirt sé, because he said


I don't think it's just that "mar" can mean "where", but also that there is cross influence from the use of "mar" to mean where, so "mar a nduairt sé" means "as he said", but under crossinfluence from the where use. This is mainly only seen with the verb abair as far as I can tell.


Interesting
There’s another form with the meaning "how he said" – at least acc. to GGBC – without mar but with a comprehensive relative pronoun, forainm coibhneasta réamhtheachtach, meaning otherwise "all that".
a ndúirt sé = mar a dúirt sé

Could this play a role here?
mar a ndúirt sé = lit. "as that-what said he"


Yes it could. It's be interesting to see what An Lon Dubh has to say on this.


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