And Caoilthe, there is little likelihood that the rules as set out in GGBC dovetail well with any individual dialect out there.

It's actually difficult to be sure what "an office of a townland" would be - as there is little real attestation of this phrase where both nouns are indefinite.

Oifig baile - this sounds like "office of the townland" - where baile means an baile (but genericised). Imigh go hoifig baile - go to the townland office!

Maybe the "rules" say oifig doesn't cause lenition because it is usually not in a double indefinite phrase?

"Baile" can mean "home", "town"/"village", or "townland". I made up the phrase "oifig baile" simply to demonstrate a grammatical point. That such a phrase might not be very meaningful in the real world is kind of beside the point.


My suspicion would be the opposite i.e. that there are likely already examples of indefinite phrases, with "oifig" as the governing noun, where the qualifying noun is not lenited. Otherwise, I don't see why it would be listed as an exception.


I think we've already seen that that would be impossible considering the variation even in a single dialect. Nonetheless an offical standard is important in my opinion for things like government documents, Bible translations, etc. But such a standard should compliment, not threaten, dialects.

Baile does not mean "home". An baile does - with the definite article. Where "baile" means "home", it is not because it is an indefinite noun, but because it has become genericised - I wrote an article in Éigse about this.



Why should government documents be in Irish? It seems the Irish language is just the plaything of Republican politicians. A lot of native speakers have stated that they struggle to read official documents in Irish, including that article by someone in Conemara who described official documents (including the one on Ireland voting again and again and again on the Lisbon Treaty) as GobbledeGaeilge. No one reads the translations of beef hormone injection regulations in the so-called Caighdeán. They're not even necessarily in correct Irish (not even according to the standardisers). They are just a waste of trees , to make a Republican point. It would be far better to put the money into a daily newspaper in Irish, and one that was closely copyedited by native speakers to ensure that every sentence was in correct--and idiomatic--Irish.

The Standard does not complement the dialects. It has destroyed the real language. (The destruction of Irish was done by the Irish; in 1926 around 19% of people in Ireland were native speakers, and native speakers of a form of Irish that was much more authentic than that found today. You could have had an Irish-only education and media system if you had wanted. There were enough good speakers for it. The Irish chose not to - a point that the Irish learners never mention.)

You say the Bible needs to be in a form of Irish made up by a committee in an English-speaking city (Dublin). What is wrong with Peadar Ua Laoghaire's Bible? I transcribed the vast majority of his Old Testament manuscripts on the Cork Irish website. See https://corkirish.wordpress.com/the-bible-in-cork-irish/ I wasn't sent the images of the Apocryphal books, so they're not transcribed, alas. But what I have done there is 700,000 words of Irish.

It's literally distressing to think of Ua Laoghaire in his late 70s, ill and under the doctor, doing his best to get the whole Bible in Irish--and then the arrogant Irish language movement dominated by learners unilaterally deciding never to publish it. I am not Irish, but I see that in some sense Peadar Ua Laoghaire is an Irish hero - and one literally kicked to the kerb by the Irish "nationalists" (self-proclaimed). He is now a figure of fun in the Irish language circles.

I am gradually rewriting my document on lenition. This is what I have on screen for lenition of an indefinite noun in the genitive after a plural noun ending in a slender consonant or after a preceding noun ending in the genitive ending in a slender consonant (note: this doesn't include the situation following feminine nouns, which will be a separate section):

1. GGBC states that a noun in the genitive in a noun phrase is lenited after a plural ending in a slender consonant or a singular noun ending in a slender consonant by reason of inflection. Ó Loingsigh’s leabhair-bhuidéil bhrannda ’na ndiaig mar dhig supports the first part of this rule. However, lothaill práis (lothall is Ua Laoghaire’s form of logall, “socket”) is repeatedly given in Ua Laoghaire’s Bible manuscripts (e.g. Exodus 26:37). The difference may lie in the fact that prás is a noun of material (arguably separate in thought from the governing noun) whereas brannda here follows what is essentially a noun of measure or quantity. That the rule of lenition in the genitive after an indefinite plural noun is not absolute was suggested by O’Nolan in his New Era Grammar (p113), where he claimed that “dynamic aspiration” can create minor differences between phrases. He cited airm cogaidh, “war weapons”, and airm chogaidh, “weapons for a war”. This appears to set up a minimal pair where one phrase has a genericised noun that is not indefinite (cogadh<an cogadh) and the other has an indefinite noun. O’Nolan did not state whether he had heard such a distinction being made in native speech. In fact, airm cogaidh is frequently encountered in Muskerry literature, whereas airm chosanta has lenition. Maybe O’Nolan would have been on firmer ground had he stated that non-lenition was the norm where the governed noun appeared to be a genericised noun, but that lenition could be found where the governed noun appeared to have an essentially adjectival character (or, as here, have the form of a verbal noun). It remains unclear whether there were ever really minimal pairs of the sort claimed by O’Nolan.

The second part of the rule in GGBC is contradicted by Ua Laoghaire’s cúpla bulóg aráin cruithneachtan. Mic Cannta aráin coirce, de bhríceanaibh aráin cruithneachtan a bhí an falla déanta, a chíste aráin cruithneachtan mar sgiath sa láimh eile aige, an t-eólus ar úsáid gach airm comhlainn, and agus d’imthigh sé féin uatha tímpal faid urchair cloiche (“a stone’s throw away”, Luke 22:41, Na cheithre Soísgéil, 212).

I'm thinking buidéil bhrannda means "brandy bottles", and buidéal brannda "bottles of brandy"? But it is difficult to find full proof of that.