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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2012 11:39 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
What about 'deireadh na seachtaine' instead of 'an deireadh seachtaine'?
That same source is blaming the influence of English for 'an deireadh seachtaine'.


Chas mé leat ag deireadh na seachtaine = I met you at the end of the week

Bíodh deireadh seachtaine den scoth agat = Have a mighty weekend

I suppose all this is sort of on the lines of:

An ghloine bheorach = the beer glass

An ghloine beorach = the glass of beer

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2012 11:57 pm 
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I'd say that's another topic altogether, in a way. Séimhiú or no séimhiú.

Gloine fíona = wine-glass / glass of wine [FGB]

cos crainn = bun crainn
cos chrainn = cos adhmaid ... this one takes a séimhiú because it is describing what cos is made of. (from An Caighdeán Oifigiúil)

This whole subject is hotly debated, of course, and there are lots of exceptions and a list of other reasons why there might be a séimhiú sa ghinideach after a feminine noun.

Even DeBhaldy and FGB differ: Feis Ceoil / Feis Cheoil.


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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr 2012 12:01 am 
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I think I can actually feel my head melting! :panic:

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr 2012 1:19 am 
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Saoirse wrote:
I think I can actually feel my head melting! :panic:



shhhhh.... keep it quiet, on pain of excummunication I have to say that in reality I think that FGB and DeBaldy haven't their minds a minute betimes :)

... so you're not the only one.... :panic:

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr 2012 2:07 am 
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Probably because both are possible, and they tried to understand what was the rule behind that, but in speech there are exceptions...

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PostPosted: Sun 08 Apr 2012 2:38 am 
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I once asked a native speaker "which is correct? mála na milseán? or an mála milseán?" A: "Both, but the meanings are different."

mála na milseán is "the bag used to hold sweets", i.e., this represents the container.

an mála milseán is "the bag full of sweets" this represents the container and its contents.

I think Scooby's rules apply to indefinite cases where the article isn't interfering with lenition.

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Sep 2021 11:19 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
What about 'deireadh na seachtaine' instead of 'an deireadh seachtaine'?
That same source is blaming the influence of English for 'an deireadh seachtaine'.


Saoirse, I was thinking about this just now.

Sagart na paróiste: the priest of the parish (=the priest who is actually in charge of this parish)
An sagart paróiste: the parish priest ("parish priest" is seen here as a type of priest)


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct 2021 1:46 am 
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This topic also reminds me of the style of names of government departments e.g. An Roinn Airgeadais, An Roinn Oideachais.

I have a vague memory from years ago when I was a child of something I either read or that I heard on the radio, where a man (who seemed to be an Irish language expert) was arguing that these names were grammatically incorrect and that they should be rendered as Roinn an Airgeadais, Roinn an Oideachais, etc.


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Oct 2021 2:36 am 
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Caoilte wrote:
This topic also reminds me of the style of names of government departments e.g. An Roinn Airgeadais, An Roinn Oideachais.

I have a vague memory from years ago when I was a child of something I either read or that I heard on the radio, where a man (who seemed to be an Irish language expert) was arguing that these names were grammatically incorrect and that they should be rendered as Roinn an Airgeadais, Roinn an Oideachais, etc.


An Roínn Oideachais - this is not grammatically incorrect at all.

Roínn an Oideachais = the department of the education (both nouns definite)

Compare: an bhean tí and bean an tí, as well.


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PostPosted: Mon 01 Nov 2021 12:04 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
An Roínn Oideachais - this is not grammatically incorrect at all.

Roínn an Oideachais = the department of the education (both nouns definite)

Compare: an bhean tí and bean an tí, as well.

I agree. Someone should tell the government.

Here's another peculiar one. It's currently around the centenary of the War of Independence. So over the last year or two, I've come across some history articles that mentioned the term 'Na Fianna Éireann' (being a reference to the youth wing of the Irish Volunteers/IRA). The first time I saw it, I assumed it was a once-off mistake, but then I saw it a second and a third time in different articles. So now I realise that the organisation did in fact render its name as 'Na Fianna Éireann'.

I'm not sure what was going on in the mind(s) of the person(s) who came up with this name but it's possibly one of the following.

1. They started off with the term 'Fianna Éireann', but then decided that it needed the definite article at the beginning. This would be along the lines of people who say things like 'an bhean an tí' instead of the correct 'bean an tí', since they are comparing to the corresponding English, which has the definitive article at the beginning ('the woman of the house')

2. Or, they started off with the term 'Fianna na hÉireann, but then decided to move the article to the beginning, in the same way that 'Roinn an Oideachais' erroneously becomes 'An Roinn Oideachais'.

--

As an aside, the word 'Éire' is unusual in being one of the few country names that doesn't have the definite article in the nominative case, but it then typically does have the definitive article in the genitive case e.g. Muintir na hÉireann, talamh na hÉireann. However, in some (a minority of) phrases the convention seems to be to the omit the article eg. Dáil Éireann. So possibly things like 'Muintir Éireann' would be equally valid.


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