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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015 10:00 am 
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MsHollywood wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
:good:

Hi welcome to the forum!

Is mise an duine is sine i mo theaghlach/ mhintir

I think it should be:

Is ise/ eisean an duine is sine...

http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/person.htm
http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul5.htm

*clann means 'children', offspring, not family in the English sense.


GRMA! I remember discovering that distinction between 'clann' and 'teaghlach' in secondary school. I felt I had been living a lie for so long! :P


Just check on eisean/ ise. :LOL: There's lots of times when I felt I have been living a lie with Irish; the biggest lie of all was the time I found out the Irish we were learning in school wasn't actually the Irish language of my region at all and the fact that we were never thought how to pronounce words properly.

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Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015 11:50 am 
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MsHollywood wrote:
I don't see why you feel the need to comment on the teaching strategies I'm employing.

Mostly because I'm an interfering busibody.

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A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015 12:53 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
MsHollywood wrote:
I don't see why you feel the need to comment on the teaching strategies I'm employing.

Mostly because I'm an interfering busibody.


Lol! At least you can admit it! ;P


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PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug 2015 9:36 am 
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MsHollywood wrote:
Well, it does occur as a assessment portion of a lesson at the end of a unit of study in which they have already practised 'Is/Ní mise an duine is sine', 'Is é/í X an duine is sine' and 'An tusa an duine is sine?', etc. So, yes, they should have acquired the necessary practise regarding vocabulary/sentence formation. The 'prompt' in this case, is recognising 'duine is sine', and with their current level of knowledge, I think they should be able to successfully pose and answer the appropriate question.


But have they learned how to form relative clauses? I doubt it. And we all know that relatives in Irish are a bit less straightforward than in mainstream European languages.

"The eldest in the family" would tend to be the father or mother, so unless yu want to add 'páiste' or something, I would make it "the youngest" in the family" (easy way out). I don't think "an té" (cf Labhrás) is appropriate in this context, so I'd suggest: Aimsigh duine atá ar an duine is óige sa teaghlach. (Or ina t(h)eaghlach).)

They won't be familiar with that way of expressing the superlative though, so, using the relative of the copula: Aimsigh duine arb é/í an duine is óige sa teaghlach (é/í). I don't think the final é/í is necessary.

(Open to correction as ever.)


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PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug 2015 11:34 am 
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Errigal wrote:
They won't be familiar with that way of expressing the superlative though, so, using the relative of the copula: Aimsigh duine arb é/í an duine is óige sa teaghlach (é/í). I don't think the final é/í is necessary.


This sentence feels wrong.
ar(b) is an indirect relative, (first) duine is subject and antecedent of the relative clause ...
So, a direct relative* is necessary (... is ...),
I don't think a resumptive pronoun (final é/í) is possible here at all. (But it would be necessary for an indirect relative)

But ...
Aimsigh an duine is é an duine is óige sa teaghlach
doesn't feel any better ;) (too complicated, as well as my own suggestion above (... an té atá ar an duine ...)

Simplified and sufficient:
Aimsigh an duine is óige sa teaghlach

*) An indirect relative copular clause with a subject as its antecedent is only possible when a "fo-ainmní" (sub-subject) is used in non-relative constructions (which is turned into a resumptive pronoun in the corresponding relative clause), i.e. in classification sentences only:
Is múinteoir é an duine = the person is a teacher
->
an duine ar múinteoir é = the person who is a teacher


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug 2015 11:08 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Errigal wrote:
They won't be familiar with that way of expressing the superlative though, so, using the relative of the copula: Aimsigh duine arb é/í an duine is óige sa teaghlach (é/í). I don't think the final é/í is necessary.


This sentence feels wrong.
ar(b) is an indirect relative, (first) duine is subject and antecedent of the relative clause ...
So, a direct relative* is necessary (... is ...),
I don't think a resumptive pronoun (final é/í) is possible here at all. (But it would be necessary for an indirect relative)


Yes, I can tell a direct relative from an indirect - rocket science it ain't :D - and I know that it's a direct relative in this case. However, it seems the indirect structure is used in identification sentences whether the relative is direct or indirect. Not that I've seen this in any grammar book - just my (admittedly limited) experience.
Labhrás, google "arb(h) é/í an" and "arb(h) iad na" and you'll see. Many of them are genuine indirect relatives of course - genitives and occasional datives - but at least as many are technically direct relatives.

Labhrás wrote:
But ...
Aimsigh an duine is é an duine is óige sa teaghlach
doesn't feel any better ;) (too complicated, as well as my own suggestion above (... an té atá ar an duine ...)


Not only does it not feel any better. It's just wrong.

Labhrás wrote:
Simplified and sufficient:
Aimsigh an duine is óige sa teaghlach


But this isn't at all what MsHollywood is looking for and is no use to him/her. Read the original request again.

Actually, I'd been wondering if my version could be shortened to Aimsigh duine arb é is óige sa teaghlach and then I came upon this in a 'Tráth na gCeist' book based on a quiz competition on RnaG: Cé a bhain rás 100m breaststroke ag na cluichí Ollimpeacha i 1988 agus arb é is gaiste sa domhan a bhfuii an fad sin snáfa aige?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Aug 2015 7:52 am 
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Errigal wrote:
Yes, I can tell a direct relative from an indirect - rocket science it ain't :D


I think it is :)

Errigal wrote:
- and I know that it's a direct relative in this case. However, it seems the indirect structure is used in identification sentences whether the relative is direct or indirect. Not that I've seen this in any grammar book - just my (admittedly limited) experience.
Labhrás, google "arb(h) é/í an" and "arb(h) iad na" and you'll see. Many of them are genuine indirect relatives of course - genitives and occasional datives - but at least as many are technically direct relatives.


Oh, you are right. :oops:
There are really examples of "arb é an X é" "which is the X"
So I learnt something new. GRMA.


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