Irish medium schools

Dáithí Mac Giolla. · **Joined:** Sat 01 Jun 2013 8:46 pm **Posts:** 466

DTG wrote:

I would add that many of the suggestions here were implemented in many, many schools not long after partition in 1922, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s, with little success in terms of stemming the decline of the Gaeltacht. There were over 400 Irish-medium schools at one point, including many at the secondary level. What the system succeeded in doing was providing a knowledge of Irish to an entire post-partition generation, which was an achievement in itself, but few achieved fluency and even fewer passed the language on to their own children.

Now we learn that most Gaeltacht youth are less confident in Irish. English isn't just cool, it's the language they are most confident speaking. Universal bilingualism among native Irish speakers is here to stay, which usually means unidirectional bilingualism in favor of English across social domains, so how much room for growth is there?

I have no doubt said it here before, as I have many times elsewhere. I feel we are taking the wrong approach.
Firstly children are learning Irish too late, by the age of five they already have a dominant language which they use with a peer group.
If a minority language is to have a hope of being picked up and used by children amongst their peer group it needs to start much earlier.
Either within an early childhood care system, which the state also needs for other reasons

and/or better yet, promoting the use in the home.
I have read of systems used with native American languages where learners are paid a fee to learn a minority language as well as the teacher, after all they need to dedicate a large amount of time.

It would be possible to offer intensive courses for parents off all abilities who are interested and allowing the time off work (like parental leave) and a payment (like a FÁS training payment) to allow them to complete the intensive course.

Saoirse · **Posted:** Sun 16 Aug 2015 4:21 pm

Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:

I have no doubt said it here before, as I have many times elsewhere. I feel we are taking the wrong approach. Firstly children are learning Irish too late, by the age of five they already have a dominant language which they use with a peer group. If a minority language is to have a hope of being picked up and used by children amongst their peer group it needs to start much earlier. Either within an early childhood care system, which the state also needs for other reasons and/or better yet, promoting the use in the home.

I have read of systems used with native American languages where learners are paid a fee to learn a minority language as well as the teacher, after all they need to dedicate a large amount of time.

It would be possible to offer intensive courses for parents off all abilities who are interested and allowing the time off work (like parental leave) and a payment (like a FÁS training payment) to allow them to complete the intensive course.

This would all be great and would certainly improve the situation greatly. I have always been of the opinion that there are many, many people who feel very positively about Irish. I think there are two main stumbling blocks for them using what they know. Confidence and opportunity. 1. Confidence. If you feel that you are going to be looked down on for not having perfect Irish if you use your dodgy cúpla focal, how can you improve? This is not the same as condoning bad Irish in more 'official' situations. 2. Opportunity. Many Irish speakers speak to other Irish speakers in English as neither knows that the other has Irish. There needs to be ways of identifying each other. In reality, very few wear the fáinne. A simple thing like saying 'Slán' (although that's at the end of the conversation!) tells others that you are interested in Irish. The more people speak Irish openly, the more others will hear it and the more interest others will have. We have come a long way from when speaking Irish was viewed as backward.

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

Quote:

The data already exists to tell us that these concerns are unfounded, but this is now unshakeable dogma in language revitalisation, and people who want to save their language end up doing as much harm as good. Which is a shame.

Because 'true believers' care little for their ostensible target of affections -getting credited with being the 'saviour' is an immediate pay off, whereas real rebirth is a complex process and one they might not get to control, which wouldn't be in their interests.

Quote:

Even Sinn Féin, whose members often like to portray themselves as defenders of Irish, have a tokenistic approach to Ireland's oldest official language.

They, and the GAA use it only as window dressing. A few months back in a county newspaper, I saw a councillor run an 'advert' with comhghairdeas lacking the preposition, which is clearly Béarlachas, while in Croke Park a few weeks ago, on the big screen 'in omós X' flashed up, misspelled and again lacking in the preposition (in ómós do X). It wasn't like they had written it 'in ómós....', just a clear cut-off

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:

DTG wrote:

I would add that many of the suggestions here were implemented in many, many schools not long after partition in 1922, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s, with little success in terms of stemming the decline of the Gaeltacht. There were over 400 Irish-medium schools at one point, including many at the secondary level. What the system succeeded in doing was providing a knowledge of Irish to an entire post-partition generation, which was an achievement in itself, but few achieved fluency and even fewer passed the language on to their own children.

Now we learn that most Gaeltacht youth are less confident in Irish. English isn't just cool, it's the language they are most confident speaking. Universal bilingualism among native Irish speakers is here to stay, which usually means unidirectional bilingualism in favor of English across social domains, so how much room for growth is there?

I have no doubt said it here before, as I have many times elsewhere. I feel we are taking the wrong approach.
Firstly children are learning Irish too late, by the age of five they already have a dominant language which they use with a peer group.
If a minority language is to have a hope of being picked up and used by children amongst their peer group it needs to start much earlier.
Either within an early childhood care system, which the state also needs for other reasons

and/or better yet, promoting the use in the home.
I have read of systems used with native American languages where learners are paid a fee to learn a minority language as well as the teacher, after all they need to dedicate a large amount of time.

It would be possible to offer intensive courses for parents off all abilities who are interested and allowing the time off work (like parental leave) and a payment (like a FÁS training payment) to allow them to complete the intensive course.

I totally agree, language revitalisation or restoration can never be fulfilled using the schools alone. Irish needs to be spoken in the home, if its ever going to stand a chance! Everyone seems to be blaming the government for all of Irish's woes- while they have a lot to answer for, Irish people themselves need to get real. If they start speaking Irish at home and availing of services through Irish then the government will then feel the need to get behind it. We need to look closely at the Basque example. We, as a people, are just as guilty of paying lip-service to the language as any government is or was.

However, I agree with DTG regarding bilingualism. Studies have shown that bilingualism doesn't actually help the cause of a minority language. When a person is bilingual and they are surrounded by one dominant language (English in our example), they naturally become more adept and find it easier to speak the dominant language to the detriment of the minority or restrictive language. Since the main objective of language is to communicate, and as the bilingual speakers finds it easier to speak in one language rather than the other, the bilingual speaker will naturally use the dominant language most often.

Another factor, that doesn't help the cause of Irish is that fact that minority-language speakers feel uncomfortable speaking their language when in the company of a non-speaker, in order for that speaker to feel more included.

http://tuairisc.ie/drogall-ar-chainteoi ... eanga-acu/

This was a huge problem in Gaeltacht areas until quite recently, where you had an influx of non-native speakers moving into Gaeltachts and not bothering to learn the language because they didn't have to since Irish speakers would speak English to them. On the other had, those that were willing to learn Irish never really got the opportunity since Irish speakers would just speak in English to them because it would be too cumbersome to communicate in Irish.

As Saoirse has already mentioned, most Irish speakers often engage with people who are also Irish speakers themselves, but never actually realise the other person also speaks Irish.

Cian

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

I totally agree, language revitalisation or restoration can never be fulfilled using the schools alone.

Breton activists and people in general need to know that! The first Breton-medium schools were created in 1979 and they never noticed (or want to notice) that it didn't work. They believe Breton will be saved by schools only and by teaching another language (ie. fake Breton) in them. They've never questioned themselves...

Saoirse · **Posted:** Sun 16 Aug 2015 9:42 pm

Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:

I totally agree, language revitalisation or restoration can never be fulfilled using the schools alone.

Breton activists and people in general need to know that! The first Breton-medium schools were created in 1979 and they never noticed (or want to notice) that it didn't work. They believe Breton will be saved by schools only and by teaching another language (ie. fake Breton) in them. They've never questioned themselves...

It is easier for a government to tell everyone how great they are by quoting money that has been spent in schools. It is so much more difficult and requires much more innovation, creativity and effort to make a language an active part of a community. Also, when the school thing doesn't work (and it never will on its own), it is very convenient to be able to blame schools and teachers for not doing it properly. Irish (and presumably Breton and other languages) is treated as a school subject instead of a living language and this needs to change if we are to make real progress.

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

But the difference is that the Irish that is taught in schools is understandable for native speakers (except maybe a few coined words). It's standard Irish, so with standard grammar etc, but yet it's understandable. While school Breton is really gibberish...

Saoirse · **Posted:** Sun 16 Aug 2015 11:21 pm

Lughaidh wrote:

But the difference is that the Irish that is taught in schools is understandable for native speakers (except maybe a few coined words). It's standard Irish, so with standard grammar etc, but yet it's understandable. While school Breton is really gibberish...

That's terrible. Such a pity. Such a waste.

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 2985

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Since the main objective of language is to communicate, and as the bilingual speakers finds it easier to speak in one language rather than the other, the bilingual speaker will naturally use the dominant language most often.

Like that time when the barwoman spoke to you in English Saoirse, when she saw you were a stranger. If I was there on my own she would've spoken Irish. When you want to get the job done it's easier to switch to English.

Saoirse · **Posted:** Tue 18 Aug 2015 12:21 am

Bríd Mhór wrote:

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Since the main objective of language is to communicate, and as the bilingual speakers finds it easier to speak in one language rather than the other, the bilingual speaker will naturally use the dominant language most often.

Like that time when the barwoman spoke to you in English Saoirse, when she saw you were a stranger. If I was there on my own she would've spoken Irish. When you want to get the job done it's easier to switch to English.

I still think that when you say, 'Go raibh maith agat' to a person with Irish, for her to reply with 'You're welcome' is a bit rude. But I'm not bitter...... :twisted:

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