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PostPosted: Fri 07 Aug 2015 7:56 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
I am sad to say I don't have vocabulary and idiom of my parents and grandparents.
My brothers would be a bit better than I am as they are older, but not to a great extend.
My grandparent's generation would've done subsistence farming, a few cows, a pig, chickens, sow spuds for the year. They'd have fished and picked shellfish (faocháin muiríní, sceana mara etc), and harvested seaweed. Apart from planting a few spuds (I do know what a sciollán is) my parents did none of that after they got married and had a place of their own. So I have lost a lot of that vocabulary that might be expected to be transmitted to my generation. The generations younger than I am are even worse, unless they make a effort themselves to learn it. There has been a big cultural shift in recent generations.
In fairness, Bríd, I would think that is true of every language. As lifestyles change, the skills and language associated with those lifestyles are lost and are replaced with different lifestyles and new vocabulary. One of the difficulties I see with Irish more than English is that people seem ready to accept new vocab in English for new technologies, but write off new Irish terms as made-up nonsense and refuse to use them and insert the English version as if it is more legitimate. And yet, somebody somewhere must have made up the new English term. I understand that Irish is much more open to the sensitive issue of who has the right to make up new words/terms, but I have no idea what the answer to that problem is.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Aug 2015 11:18 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
I am sad to say I don't have vocabulary and idiom of my parents and grandparents.
...
There has been a big cultural shift in recent generations.

These two things are true in all countries and all languages. But there's more to idiom than things like farming and fishing metaphors. There's things like "looking forward to" things that are idiomatic, but fundamental to the language. When these things start to go, a language loses a lot of its character.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Aug 2015 11:26 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
I am sad to say I don't have vocabulary and idiom of my parents and grandparents.
...
There has been a big cultural shift in recent generations.

These two things are true in all countries and all languages. But there's more to idiom than things like farming and fishing metaphors. There's things like "looking forward to" things that are idiomatic, but fundamental to the language. When these things start to go, a language loses a lot of its character.

I was using farming and fishing only as some examples. There is more to it than that, I agree.


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PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug 2015 4:00 pm 
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This is a topic which has always intrigued me but leaves me feeling conflicted as well. Although I have spent time in Ireland and taken Irish classes in Galway and Donegal, I am not even close to fluent. Nor am I Irish. However, I know enough Irish to differentiate between a native speaker and the often-rough accents of speakers in Belfast and Dublin etc.

Even some prominent members of Conradh na Gaeilge speak with a heavily Anglophone or 'anglicized' accent, while possessing a range and vocabulary that puts most of us to shame. I never understood that. The native blas of a particular Gaeltacht district should always be the model to follow, in my opinion, but the reality is that many people are not willing or simply unable to alter their own native [Hiberno English or Ulster English] accent, which comes through when they speak Irish.

Have we already reached the stage where urban Irish/'book Irish'/school Irish is easier to understand for the average speaker than native Gaeltacht Irish?

It is easy to become discouraged reading all the headlines recently about young Gaeltacht people with poor Irish and the 'extinction' of the Gaeltacht (clearly some journalists don't know what language extinction actually means)....but when I hear young Gaeltacht millennials like Fiona Ní Fhlaithearta, Áine Ní Bhreisleáin, Maitiú Ó Coimín and urban speakers like Tomaí Ó Conghaile I am cautiously optimistic for the future. The number of Irish-speaking households needs to increase significantly though, nationally and in the Gaeltacht, among native speakers, so-called 'neo native' speakers and fluent learners alike. All the second language speakers and Irish-medium schools in the world won't make much difference if intergenerational transmission rates continue to decline. Anything else is a hobby.

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PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug 2015 4:31 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
So I have lost a lot of that vocabulary that might be expected to be transmitted to my generation. The generations younger than I am are even worse, unless they make a effort themselves to learn it. There has been a big cultural shift in recent generations.


What about pronunciation and syntax among young people from Irish-speaking homes in your area? Do you notice much variation across your own generation and also within those currently in school?

The research report recently published by Dr Ó Giollagáin et al. was very sobering. If I remember correctly only 2 of the 50 children studied were judged to be 'balanced bilinguals'; the remainder showed greater fluency in English despite all coming from Irish-speaking homes in the two strongest Gaeltacht districts in Ireland. Presumably the situation is even more alarming in Donegal and Kerry and Mayo etc...

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PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug 2015 9:11 pm 
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DTG wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
So I have lost a lot of that vocabulary that might be expected to be transmitted to my generation. The generations younger than I am are even worse, unless they make a effort themselves to learn it. There has been a big cultural shift in recent generations.


What about pronunciation and syntax among young people from Irish-speaking homes in your area? Do you notice much variation across your own generation and also within those currently in school?

The research report recently published by Dr Ó Giollagáin et al. was very sobering. If I remember correctly only 2 of the 50 children studied were judged to be 'balanced bilinguals'; the remainder showed greater fluency in English despite all coming from Irish-speaking homes in the two strongest Gaeltacht districts in Ireland. Presumably the situation is even more alarming in Donegal and Kerry and Mayo etc...


Of my 5 siblings only one brother raised his two sons with Irish (myself and my eldest brother don't have children). Those nephews are now in their 30s. Their Irish, although fluent, does have a certain accent (for want of a better word). In my opinion it's the influence of their English speaking friends when at school.
I don't really have contact with young people and children. Apart from occasionally seeing a few cousins. These particular cousins were raised as Irish as a first language but would prefer speaking English among themselves and their friends- although there is hope, one of them is raising her daughter with Irish.


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PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug 2015 9:25 pm 
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Have we already reached the stage where urban Irish/'book Irish'/school Irish is easier to understand for the average speaker than native Gaeltacht Irish?


of course it is simpler, since urban Irish is English in disguise, and much poorer than Gaeltacht Irish. Just like the English as spoken by French people is much easier to understand to French people, than native speakers' speech is :)

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PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug 2015 2:51 am 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:



Of my 5 siblings only one brother raised his two sons with Irish (myself and my eldest brother don't have children). Those nephews are now in their 30s. Their Irish, although fluent, does have a certain accent (for want of a better word). In my opinion it's the influence of their English speaking friends when at school.
I don't really have contact with young people and children. Apart from occasionally seeing a few cousins. These particular cousins were raised as Irish as a first language but would prefer speaking English among themselves and their friends- although there is hope, one of them is raising her daughter with Irish.


interesting. Were you and your siblings raised in a home where only Irish was spoken, or a bilingual household? Has the issue of language transmission ever come up in conversation with any of your siblings?

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PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug 2015 3:56 am 
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DTG wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:



Of my 5 siblings only one brother raised his two sons with Irish (myself and my eldest brother don't have children). Those nephews are now in their 30s. Their Irish, although fluent, does have a certain accent (for want of a better word). In my opinion it's the influence of their English speaking friends when at school.
I don't really have contact with young people and children. Apart from occasionally seeing a few cousins. These particular cousins were raised as Irish as a first language but would prefer speaking English among themselves and their friends- although there is hope, one of them is raising her daughter with Irish.


interesting. Were you and your siblings raised in a home where only Irish was spoken, or a bilingual household? Has the issue of language transmission ever come up in conversation with any of your siblings?


Irish only home

Well I don't want to say too much online, but a brother and a sister moved out of the Gaeltacht (one to England). The other brother that stayed in the Gaeltacht married a predominately English speaker-his kids do have Irish (especially the eldest- Mamó's influence), but learnt mostly at school, the kids would never speak Irish with each other though.


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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug 2015 5:40 pm 
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I don't want to be ruse, but it is 100% understand and a given that the Irish of young people is weaker than generations of yore. It's the same as any other minority language surrounded by a world or regional language where the speakers of the minority language are bi-lingual

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