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 Post subject: Asking for confirmation
PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb 2015 2:28 pm 
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Is this right for 'Open here' - I'm putting it on the flap which you pull on to open a box - ?

le h-Oscailt Anseo


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PostPosted: Fri 13 Feb 2015 9:55 pm 
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Wouldn't osclaítear anseo be better? Like you're commanding someone to open it there.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 12:12 am 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Wouldn't osclaítear anseo be better? Like you're commanding someone to open it there.


That wouldn't be a command. That's more like the passive voice in English ("Opened here")

I think I'd just use "Oscail anseo." Short and sweet.

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 3:16 am 
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Aye, oscail anseo, or in Donegal Irish: foscail anseo.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 3:45 am 
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Redwolf wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Wouldn't osclaítear anseo be better? Like you're commanding someone to open it there.


That wouldn't be a command. That's more like the passive voice in English ("Opened here")

I think I'd just use "Oscail anseo." Short and sweet.

Redwolf



It's also the autonomous form of the command. I figured you'd use the autonomous because you don't know who is opening it. I can easily see oscail anseo as well - I just felt the autonomous might be better.

Furthermore, the autonomous doesn't really translate as a passive anymore in native speech (though sometimes a passive is the best English translation for it) - at least from what I gathered from Grammadach an Gaeilge and An Lon Dubh's comments on Duolingo.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 4:22 am 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Wouldn't osclaítear anseo be better? Like you're commanding someone to open it there.


That wouldn't be a command. That's more like the passive voice in English ("Opened here")

I think I'd just use "Oscail anseo." Short and sweet.

Redwolf



It's also the autonomous form of the command. I figured you'd use the autonomous because you don't know who is opening it. I can easily see oscail anseo as well - I just felt the autonomous might be better.

Furthermore, the autonomous doesn't really translate as a passive anymore in native speech (though sometimes a passive is the best English translation for it) - at least from what I gathered from Grammadach an Gaeilge and An Lon Dubh's comments on Duolingo.


It would certainly be read as passive voice in this context. No need to complicate things..."oscail anseo" (or, as Lughaidh pointed out, "foscail anseo") works, and is most likely what people would say.

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 4:38 am 
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Redwolf wrote:

It would certainly be read as passive voice in this context. No need to complicate things..."oscail anseo" (or, as Lughaidh pointed out, "foscail anseo") works, and is most likely what people would say.

Redwolf



It would only be read as the passive if you were translating it to English. In modern, natively spoken Irish, the autonomous is not a passive - at least from what I've read/heard. To quote from Pól Ó Murchú's A Grammar of Modern Irish: An Annotated Guide to Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí:

Quote:
15.29 A verb's autonomous form is the most common impersonal form. It is used when it is not wished, needed, or possible to mention the agent.


From Gramadach na Gaeilge

Quote:
The autonomous form is especially used for prohibit signs. In German one uses rather the infinitive, in English, the progressive.


I see no reason why this wouldn't be used for allowing as well, since the agent is unknown.

So, really, it only seems that the "passive" sense arises in translation - not really in the Irish itself.

However, I will fully admit to conceding to Lughaidh. He is, as far as I'm aware, a native speaker (or highly fluent). I just felt the autonomous (not passive!) command would be better, since the person (or people!) who would be opening the box are unknown.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 7:19 am 
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Go raibh maith agaibh


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 5:22 pm 
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Quote:
However, I will fully admit to conceding to Lughaidh. He is, as far as I'm aware, a native speaker (or highly fluent).


Thanks for your compliment but unfortunately I'm not a native speaker, I'm not even an Irish citizen, I started to learn Irish when I was 16 (almost 20 years ago).

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Feb 2015 5:51 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:

However, I will fully admit to conceding to Lughaidh. He is, as far as I'm aware, a native speaker (or highly fluent). I just felt the autonomous (not passive!) command would be better, since the person (or people!) who would be opening the box are unknown.


As it happens, I'm also a fluent speaker. 11 years learning as of this January. I generally concede questions of grammar and usage to Lughaidh, however, because he's more solid on both than I.

It's also a matter of practice and association. Instructions such as this are generally given in the singular imperative...the assumption being that each person who reads it is reading it as an individual. Sometimes you'll see the autonomous (I've seen "No Smoking" signs using both), but in my experience, the imperative is more common in this context.

Redwolf


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