It is currently Wed 22 Apr 2026 6:37 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 1:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed 28 Jan 2015 12:39 am
Posts: 2
Hello. I've been dabbling in the Irish language recently, as I've been unable to find any actual courses. So, ignorant, I'd just like to know how you typically indicate a possessive proper noun. "Kevin's toy", for example. Could someone please translate that quote, and perhaps explain it if their in the mood? Thanks so much!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 2:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 3512
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
Hahnesto wrote:
Hello. I've been dabbling in the Irish language recently, as I've been unable to find any actual courses. So, ignorant, I'd just like to know how you typically indicate a possessive proper noun. "Kevin's toy", for example. Could someone please translate that quote, and perhaps explain it if their in the mood? Thanks so much!


In order to make any noun possessive, you have to put it in the genitive case, and the rules governing that vary according to the declension of the noun.

Modifiers follow the noun they modify in Irish (so it becomes literally "toy Kevin"). The question is, do you want to leave "Kevin" in its English form, or do you want to use the Irish name it came from?

Foreign names don't change in the genitive case, so "Kevin's toy" would be "Bréagán Kevin."

If you're using the Irish name from which "Kevin" was derived, however, it will change. That name is "Caoimhín," but when you pair it as a genitive with another noun, you get:

Bréagán Chaoimhín

As far as courses go, there are quite a few out there. Are you looking for a book course or something on-line? Do you live in Ireland or elsewhere?

Redwolf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 8:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 2114
Location: 91 - France
Here are some more examples -

leabhar Sheáin - Seán's book - an 'h' has been inserted before the initial S (this is called aspiration) - the 'á' on its own is a broad vowel, but here it becomes slender, ie - it has been slenderised, because an 'i' has been inserted after it. The spelling obviously changes according to the way the pronunciation does.

leabhar Shéamais - Séamas's book

athair Mháire - Máire's (Mary's) father (here the vowel is already slender, so there's no need to change it)

muintir Chiarraí - the people of Kerry

tigh Dhomnaill Uí Chonaill - Daniel (Donal) O'Connell's house

tigh Thaidhg - Taidhg's house

rothar Shíle - Síle's bicycle

This is taken from 'Teach yourself Irish' by Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín 1961 edition.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 2:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 3512
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
franc 91 wrote:
Here are some more examples -

leabhar Sheáin - Seán's book - an 'h' has been inserted before the initial S (this is called aspiration) - the 'á' on its own is a broad vowel, but here it becomes slender, ie - it has been slenderised, because an 'i' has been inserted after it. The spelling obviously changes according to the way the pronunciation does.

leabhar Shéamais - Séamas's book

athair Mháire - Máire's (Mary's) father (here the vowel is already slender, so there's no need to change it)



Just to clarify a bit: If the name is a masculine one that ends with a broad consonant (Hahnesto, that's a consonant that's preceded by an a, o, or u), the end is slenderized. If it's a feminine name, the ending isn't changed. So...

Seán's house becomes Teach Sheáín (ending is slenderized)

But...

Siobhán's house becomes Teach Shiobhán (no change to ending)

We've been talking about proper nouns, Hahnesto, but you use the genitive form of other nouns to show possession, or to indicate a descriptive relationship, as well:

Athair = Father

Teach = house

Teach m'athar = My father's house

Nollaig = Christmas

Carúl = carol (as in song)

Carúl Nollag = Christmas carol

Madadh = dog (Ulster dialect)

Léim = leap/jump

Léim an Mhadaidh = (literally) The dog's leap (it's also the Irish form of the town name "Limavady")

Some words don't have a different form in the genitive case, so the genitive relationship is shown by putting the modifying noun after the word it modifies:

Croí = heart

Galar = illness/disease

Galar croí = heart disease

Redwolf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 9:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed 28 Jan 2015 12:39 am
Posts: 2
Thank you so much, Redwolf, franc 91. This is all incredibly helpful. You guys are wonderful.

I live in Nevada, USA, and I'm just looking for any sort of free book or online course to get me started on Gaeilge. If you have some suggestions, I would love to hear them!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 9:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2014 10:03 pm
Posts: 522
Location: SAM
Hahnesto, I suggest you look here:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2960

It talks about how to get the book (which teaches actual spoken Irish) and audio. It is dry, being made in the 1960s, but it is free. Duolingo can be of some help, but do not trust the voice and always check the comments - there are some issues with it.

I can also link you to several Facebook groups to meet people via Skype to speak with. And, depending on where you are in Nevada, you can probably find people around you, too!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 9:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 2114
Location: 91 - France
One thing you might not have noticed there is that for the word 'house' I've put tigh whereas Redwolf has put teach. Tigh is the dialect form of that word in use in Munster in the South West corner of Ireland.
You'll notice that on this forum and elsewhere such as in the online dictionaries that we often refer to here - Breis.Foclóir, there are three main dialects - Munster, Conamara and Ulster. I don't come from Ireland but Munster happens to be the one I prefer, the others have their own preferences for different reasons, but it's always useful to know about them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan 2015 9:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 3512
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
Hahnesto wrote:
Thank you so much, Redwolf, franc 91. This is all incredibly helpful. You guys are wonderful.

I live in Nevada, USA, and I'm just looking for any sort of free book or online course to get me started on Gaeilge. If you have some suggestions, I would love to hear them!


Does it absolutely have to be free? There are quite a few good books out there that aren't terribly expensive. The newer "Teach Yourself Irish" is widely available in the U.S. (Amazon has it, and I've also seen it at Barnes & Noble), and comes with audio discs.

Do you have an interest in a particular dialect? Franc mentioned those in his post. It's not hugely important that you specialize right off the bat (it's not at all unusual for beginners to have a mixture of dialects at first), but if you know you're ultimately going to want to focus on the language as spoken in a certain part of the country, you may as well start as you mean to go on. It's also good, as franc mentioned, to be aware of the differences (I'm so used to seeing both "tigh" and "teach" that I completely missed that franc had used one and I'd used the other!)

Redwolf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan 2015 12:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 1581
There's a lot of free stuff online. Here are some examples:

Learn Irish with Liam Ó Maonlaoí:
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/learn-irish-with-liam-o-maonlai-26460087.html
This series was offered originally through the Irish Independent newspaper, going from basic phrases up to quite sophisticated conversation. There are downloadable written texts (pdf files), and also downloadable audio files (mp3 files) so that you can hear the text spoken.

Anseo is Ansiud:
Printed text:
--Book 1: http://www.gaeilge.org/AIA1
--Book 2: http://www.gaeilge.org/AIA2
--Book 3: http://www.gaeilge.org/AIA3
Sound files for Book 1: http://aia.gaeilge.org/aia1audio
This is an old Irish primary school elementary text series. The online version has downloadable text files (pdf files) and also has downloadable audio files (mp3 files) to use with Book 1. The grammar and pronunciation favor thhe Munster dialect, but it's still very good for all beginners.

_________________
I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: OT: "Kevin's toy"
PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan 2015 11:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 4:29 pm
Posts: 67
Location: NSW Australia
CaoimhínSF wrote:
There's a lot of free stuff online. Here are some examples:

Learn Irish with Liam Ó Maonlaoí:
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/learn-irish-with-liam-o-maonlai-26460087.html
This series was offered originally through the Irish Independent newspaper, going from basic phrases up to quite sophisticated conversation. There are downloadable written texts (pdf files), and also downloadable audio files (mp3 files) so that you can hear the text spoken.

Anseo is Ansiud:
Printed text:
--Book 1: http://www.gaeilge.org/AIA1
--Book 2: http://www.gaeilge.org/AIA2
--Book 3: http://www.gaeilge.org/AIA3
Sound files for Book 1: http://aia.gaeilge.org/aia1audio
This is an old Irish primary school elementary text series. The online version has downloadable text files (pdf files)
and also has downloadable audio files (mp3 files) to use with Book 1. The grammar and pronunciation favor thhe Munster dialect, but it's still very good for all beginners.



Thanks CaoimhinSF I have been plodding along with Liam Ó Maonlaoi for almost a year now and I still enjoy the parrot fashion learning style and easy revision - think he will be my 'best friend' for life! But had not seen the Anseo is Ansiud series - will add that to my file. That's great. I downloaded Talk Irish's Proverb a Day - it can be free - but I purchased it for just a couple of dollars the whole list and printout - although these are NOT everyday words they add to the challenge. Of course they may be in a different dialect I do not know that. Periodically life and times get in the way of study - but next week I join an Irish conversation group - very exciting.

JulieA :GRMA:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 364 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group