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 Post subject: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Sun 23 Nov 2014 5:52 pm 
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Recently I was asked to translate an imperative phrase "don’t fail (to do it)"

Ná teip ort é a dhéanamh
Ná teipeadh ort é a dhéanamh

?


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Sun 23 Nov 2014 7:17 pm 
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It's only a suggestion on my part - déan/déanaigí é sin gan teip
In the dictionary - to fail to do something - is - faillí a thabhairt i ndéanamh ruda.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Sun 23 Nov 2014 7:20 pm 
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Interesting, I see the difficulty. My first inclination would the second one in the third person, but I'm not totally sure why.

You could sidestep the issue by using loic, I think.

Ná loic é a dhéanamh.

But that's not the question. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Mon 24 Nov 2014 8:51 pm 
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MacBoo wrote:
Interesting, I see the difficulty. My first inclination would the second one in the third person, but I'm not totally sure why.


I think because "é a dhéanamh" is grammatically the subject of the sentence, and "tú" in "ort" only a logical subject.
Though I have no problems with 3rd person commands like: "Ná bíodh eagla ort", I am reluctant here to give a command to a verbal noun phrase ;)
Unfortunately I didn't find any examples for an imperative with "teip ar" in Irish, so perhaps no one would use this verb in imperative mood.

And that’s why ...
Quote:
You could sidestep the issue by using loic, I think.

Ná loic é a dhéanamh.

But that's not the question. 8-)


... this is a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Mon 24 Nov 2014 10:36 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
MacBoo wrote:
Interesting, I see the difficulty. My first inclination would the second one in the third person, but I'm not totally sure why.


I think because "é a dhéanamh" is grammatically the subject of the sentence, and "tú" in "ort" only a logical subject.
Though I have no problems with 3rd person commands like: "Ná bíodh eagla ort", I am reluctant here to give a command to a verbal noun phrase ;)
Unfortunately I didn't find any examples for an imperative with "teip ar" in Irish, so perhaps no one would use this verb in imperative mood.

Including a subject in an imperative sentence is weird, whatever the subject. If it's acceptable with "eagal", I'd be inclined to assume that's an exception.

Incidentally, Scottish Gaelic uses "take" for state nouns in negative imperative, eg "na gabh eagal". Is there a similar construction in Irish?

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Tue 25 Nov 2014 2:25 am 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
MacBoo wrote:
Interesting, I see the difficulty. My first inclination would the second one in the third person, but I'm not totally sure why.


I think because "é a dhéanamh" is grammatically the subject of the sentence, and "tú" in "ort" only a logical subject.
Though I have no problems with 3rd person commands like: "Ná bíodh eagla ort", I am reluctant here to give a command to a verbal noun phrase ;)
Unfortunately I didn't find any examples for an imperative with "teip ar" in Irish, so perhaps no one would use this verb in imperative mood.

Including a subject in an imperative sentence is weird, whatever the subject. If it's acceptable with "eagal", I'd be inclined to assume that's an exception.

Incidentally, Scottish Gaelic uses "take" for state nouns in negative imperative, eg "na gabh eagal". Is there a similar construction in Irish?


Not that I'm aware of. FGB translates "Don't be afraid" as Ná bíodh eagla ort and things like "Have a good day" are Bíodh lá maith a'd.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Tue 25 Nov 2014 8:19 am 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Not that I'm aware of. FGB translates "Don't be afraid" as Ná bíodh eagla ort and things like "Have a good day" are Bíodh lá maith a'd.

Ah, so Irish has done the same thing as English and allowed many subjunctive forms to fall together with imperatives. ScG preserves subjunctives in eg "gum bi là math agad", because this is essentially a subordinate second clause: "(I hope that you) have a nice day." "Don't be afraid" and "don't worry" are true imperatives, so use a different structure ("na gabh dragh", "na gabh eagal").

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Tue 25 Nov 2014 10:03 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Not that I'm aware of. FGB translates "Don't be afraid" as Ná bíodh eagla ort and things like "Have a good day" are Bíodh lá maith a'd.

Ah, so Irish has done the same thing as English and allowed many subjunctive forms to fall together with imperatives. ScG preserves subjunctives in eg "gum bi là math agad", because this is essentially a subordinate second clause: "(I hope that you) have a nice day." "Don't be afraid" and "don't worry" are true imperatives, so use a different structure ("na gabh dragh", "na gabh eagal").


Perhaps Gaelic was under French influence here (as Scottish culture was for quite a while). The French do the same thing with expressions like "Qu'il entre!", meaning "Let him enter!", but literally being the subordinate clause in "[I order] that he enter".

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t fail ...
PostPosted: Wed 26 Nov 2014 7:04 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
Perhaps Gaelic was under French influence here (as Scottish culture was for quite a while). The French do the same thing with expressions like "Qu'il entre!", meaning "Let him enter!", but literally being the subordinate clause in "[I order] that he enter".

Pretty much every Indo-European language that still has a subjunctive does this - English used to, before it lost it. Even Irish used to do it - "gura maith agat" is the same structure of subjunctive as a wish or blessing.

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