But why do they always say this? They're not subtle but very obvious. IT should take 20 minutes to learn how to pronounce in a 'first draft' sort of way Irish and hear the differences and stop the nonsense about it after that. (You do have to be careful in reading for some snags tho, but there is the hard things to learn after which take much more time)

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Actually, some of the sounds ARE very subtle to many native English speakers, especially in the instances where a slender consonant isn't followed by a "y-glide" (for example, the difference in the initial "b" sound between "béile" and "baile").

Redwolf

Yeah, but native speakers don't notice them there either, because there is no usable contrast. A linguist might notice the spread (or lack thereof) of the lips and someone with some knowledge of Irish labials and who could read could infer a difference, but the contrast is between groups (broad vs slender) not between members of the same group (for example, with slender allophones: fiú and fí); in other words 'faoi' contrast with 'fi', more so than 'fiú' with 'fí'

Blankets statements about subtely give ammunition to people who assume that people who speak it (and by extension the language itself) are being over particular or silly about things

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Urk. The only reason that the difference between light and dark L is "subtle" to an English speaker is because they represent the same phoneme, and we've trained our brains to disregard the differences. Objectively, there's a notable difference; subjectively, there's none.

The difference between broad and slender in Irish is absolute, and objectively not subtle. That the difference between correct and incorrect pronunciation to a foreigner isn't clear isn't news, but you can't put the blame on the language that they're learning.

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A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.

Exactly; you put it much better than me -luí and lí are both objectively and cognitively different in Irish, but only the latter in English (tho a goven person might notice the difference and it could become a maker of region or class of something else, but not of grammatical contrast)

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Happened upon talk about it on RnaG last Thursday but it didn't have anything more but what it was and what irish linguist was involved on this side of the pond

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

I think it's so funny this is going on just down the road from me. Santa Cruz is a small city (in fact, Santa Cruz County is the smallest county in California). I run into people I know on a daily basis. The Irish language community here is tiny. Yet the university might as well be on the moon...I don't know any of those people, even though we live in a small community and have an interest in the same minority language.

At least five different people now have either clipped the article from the Sentinel for me or sent me a link to it.

Redwolf

Ultrasound study of Irish speakers' tongues

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.

I'm trying desperately to see if those smileys have tongues, but they just keep rolling around. I would not recommend them as participants in the study.

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It would be good if they teamed up with the fellow behind Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge. I saw his book yesterday, and it has like 46 consonants and the vowels and diphthongs as well so you might imagine they would go well together

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___