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 Post subject: An bhfuil tú ag obair?
PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 12:34 pm 
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I have a question about this phrase: "An bhfuil tú ag obair?"

1.) Is this a sound phrase or is it something that is not said in Irish?

2.) If it is said then does it mean "Are you working?", "Are you at work?" or both?

3.) Are there different phrases that are used to say the two questions in #2?


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 1:08 pm 
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Quote:
1.) Is this a sound phrase or is it something that is not said in Irish?


it's correct

Quote:
2.) If it is said then does it mean "Are you working?", "Are you at work?" or both?


both

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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 2:55 pm 
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I think if I wanted to ask if someone was at work (i.e., at his or her place of employment rather than, say, at home), I might ask something along the lines of "an bhfuil tú san oifig?" ("Are you at the office?") or something similar. If I wanted to ask "do you have a job at the moment?" I'd ask "an bhfuil post agat?" When I see "an bhfuil tú ag obair?" I think "are you (at this moment) performing some task?" -- not, necessarily, "are you at your place of employment" (which is what I think when I hear "are you at work?")

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 3:14 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
I might ask something along the lines of "an bhfuil tú san oifig?" ("Are you at the office?")


Only works if they work in an office or similar place . Also if you dont know their place of work it would be problematic?
People say "an bhfuil tú aige baile" on the phone to me for are you at home. Cant see why work wouldn't fit the same pattern.

For preforming a task would you not ask something like "cad atá á dheanamh agat?"

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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 4:27 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
I might ask something along the lines of "an bhfuil tú san oifig?" ("Are you at the office?")


Only works if they work in an office or similar place . Also if you dont know their place of work it would be problematic?
People say "an bhfuil tú aige baile" on the phone to me for are you at home. Cant see why work wouldn't fit the same pattern.

For preforming a task would you not ask something like "cad atá á dheanamh agat?"


"Aige"? That seems odd in this context. I'd assume "an bhfuil tú sa bhaile?"

I just think there's a difference between "are you working?" and "are you at work?" that isn't covered by "an bhfuil tú ag obair?"

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 6:34 pm 
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I've found that, for English-speaking learners, what may help you to understand the sentence structure is to think of the way that people in the Appalachians in the US say (or traditionally said) things like: "Are you a-workin'?" (= "Are you at working?"). Just as in Irish, and as Redwolf explained, it's used in progressive forms (where the action is/was/or will be ongoing): " "He was a-workin' ", "He's a-workin' ", and (perhaps less likely in English) "He'll be a-workin' ".

That is basically a Gaelic pattern (their ancestors are largely of Ulster-Scots or "Scots-Irish" origin), and the origin of the form is more obvious when you know that in Scottish Gaelic, the word aig (= Irish ag) is generally shortened to just a' [a + apostrophe] in such expressions, unless it comes before a vowel. So, the Irish ag dul ("[at] going") is a' dol in Scottish Gaelic.

The "a-____ing" form is also present in some other dialects (of English) in England, and there's a theory that it also has its origins there in the pre-Anglo Saxon (Brythonic) dialects of their ancestors.

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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 9:51 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:

That is basically a Gaelic pattern (their ancestors are largely of Ulster-Scots or "Scots-Irish" origin), and the origin of the form is more obvious when you know that in Scottish Gaelic, the word aig (= Irish ag) is generally shortened to just a' [a + apostrophe] in such expressions, unless it comes before a vowel. So, the Irish ag dul ("[at] going") is a' dol in Scottish Gaelic.


At least with ag the dropping of /g/ exists in colloquial Irish speech as well. It doesn't exist in the Caighdean (though it should!), however.

CaomhínSF] The "a-____ing" form is also present in some other dialects (of English) in England, and there's a theory that it also has its origins there in the pre-Anglo Saxon (Brythonic) dialects of their ancestors.[/quote]

Some dialects here in America too. Though it's often considered backwards and uneducated.

[quote="Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
For preforming a task would you not ask something like "cad atá á dheanamh agat?"


Yeah, but that's more like "What are you doing?" with an emphasis on the action (and could be translated as passive). You could also say Céard (a)tá tú a dhéanamh which is active without any emphasis.


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 11:13 pm 
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Two remarks:

in Scottish Gaelic, the preposition used before verbal nouns is "ag", which becomes "a'" before consonants. I dunno why, but they don't spell in the same way "ag" before verbal nouns and "aig", the normal preposition, in other cases, as if they were 2 different words.

Quote:
At least with ag the dropping of /g/ exists in colloquial Irish speech as well. It doesn't exist in the Caighdean (though it should!), however.


not only colloquial Irish speech. To me, pronouncing the g in Irish before a verbal noun that starts with a consonant is a mistake. No native speaker would do it in my opinion. Only learners (or non-native speakers) do it, because they don't know.

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PostPosted: Wed 22 Oct 2014 11:35 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
not only colloquial Irish speech. To me, pronouncing the g in Irish before a verbal noun that starts with a consonant is a mistake. No native speaker would do it in my opinion. Only learners (or non-native speakers) do it, because they don't know.



Aye, that's true. I shoulda been more clear. By colloquial, I meant it's not reflected in the Caighdeán.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Oct 2014 1:39 am 
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Quote:
in Scottish Gaelic, the preposition used before verbal nouns is "ag", which becomes "a'" before consonants. I dunno why, but they don't spell in the same way "ag" before verbal nouns and "aig", the normal preposition, in other cases, as if they were 2 different words.


You're right, and I've never even thought about there being two forms of aig. I'm even less likely than you to know why that's so, since you know more about Gaelic than I do.

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