A very basic question about asking questions

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

I was going to say I was surprised people would say the things they have above, as if language has no function outside of book-style grammar, but then I remember spending 3 years investigating spoken grammar with maybe 2000 students and how difficult it is for people to see beyond written grammar to the complexities of real-time interaction.

From a functional perspective, people use language to variously co-ordinate action/association, spread information and portion out resources. In a direct open question like "where are you?", one person knows and the other doesn't (in simple terms), such as over the phone, while with such a closed 'checking' question like 'feeling ok?', the asker might see the person's physical state is fine, but is interested in their opinion of the situation. After a good sleep, they might be expected to be fine, so only a yes or no is needed as there is an expectation that the possible number of likely states has been reduced and the sleep has brought things back to normal. (Basically, if everything was known, why would be bother with questions anyway?)

In the case of 'are you not wet?', the expectation is that one would have been, but the person turns out not to be or is acting as if it doesn't matter. I don't see how one could naturally query an un expectant divergence from the 'resting state' without the above

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

That post sounds like I'm chiding people -I wasn't at all.

It's also a bit hard to read. What I was basically saying is that depending on how complete your understanding of the situation is, your language varies, and since closed and negative statements & questions are more narrow than open ones, it reflects a higher degree of expectation that one state of affairs is the norm as compared to another (thus someone hearing that a third party was outside during rain yet who declines a change in jumper might elicit 'nach bhfuil/raibh sé fliuch?' so as to query the expected state)

RobertKaucher · **Joined:** Thu 26 Dec 2013 3:21 pm **Posts:** 155

WeeFalorieMan wrote:

Well, most people might not agree with this, but here's what I think:

If I were teaching English to somebody, I would not teach them to say "Where is my keys?" – I'd go with "Where are my keys?"
If I were teaching Irish to somebody, I would not teach them that "Níl tú fliuch" is a question – I'd go with "Ná fuileann tú fliuch?"

Just my personal opinion … :dhera:

And I don't think you are wrong to hold that opinion at all. But if a course is trying to teach a spoken language as it's spoken then we cannot fault it if it uses a construction that a native speaker might actually use... even if we have never heard it ourselves. It's the categorical dismissal of the resource with insufficient information about it that I am arguing against. The only reason I am saying anything is because I think there is too much negativity from people who love the language and this discourages others, especially beginners.

NiallBeag wrote:

Amateur materials... sometimes you get what you pay for.

WeeFalorieMan wrote:

I don't know what Memrise is, but apparently, you already know more than the person who posted that stuff!

Needless to say, it doesn't do you any good to try to learn Irish from people who are not fluent speakers themselves – just sayin' … :dhera:

maidofkent wrote:

I had sort of suspected that they might be mistakes. Even if not, it's discouraging to learn one way of saying something, and then another. I'll probably not go further with it, but wait for my own books to arrive, and stay with those.

Thank you for replying.

But if people who were familiar with the course had mentioned that the sound files would have added context showing this was just a special case of a mother expressing surprise before others said it was amateur material, maidofkent could still be going on with the course and have a little deeper understanding of the language because of it.

Here is what was said when the course was originally released.

Quote:

Dáil Éireann - Volume 230 - 08 November, 1967
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Buntús Cainte Lessons.

58. Mr. O.J. Flanagan asked the Minister for Education if he is satisfied with the national response to the Buntús Cáinte lessons; if he feels the lessons have been a success to date; and if 185,000 copies of the booklet have in fact been purchased.

Mr. O'Malley: I am well satisfied with the national response to the “Buntús Cainte” lessons. All the reports which I have received, and they are very many indeed, indicate that this series of lessons and the television programme related to them have been received with the greatest enthusiasm. The fact that the lessons are scientifically based and provide adults in a pleasant way with the minimum amount of spoken Irish necessary for everyday conversation are two major reasons for their success. The third is the high degree of goodwill for the language which exists among our people.
In order to meet the demand for the booklet it has been necessary to produce five editions of it. To-date 218,000 copies have been sold and the sales are continuing.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: An bhfuil a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil muintir na tíre sásta leis an golár seo? Nuair a bhéas deire leis an gcúrsa seo, Buntús Cáinte, an gcuirfear leabhar eile ar fáil ina mbeidh cheachtanna den tsaghas seo?
Dr. Hillery: Cinnte.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Tá a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil na daoine go léir sásta leis an gclár seo?

Mr. O'Malley: Tá a fhios agam go maith.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Nuair a bhéas deire leis an leabhar seo, an mbeidh leabhar nua le fáil?

Mr. O'Malley: Beidh. Buntús Cainte Cuid II.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Is maith an rud é sin mar tá áthas an domhain ar na daoine go léir agus molaim an leabhar agus an clár go h-árd.

Dr. Hillery: Tá toradh an chláir le feiscint anseo.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan: Go raibh maith agat. Is maith an rud é sin. Faoi mar is eol díbh, rinne na Teachtaí ar an dtaobh seo den Tí níos mó ar son na Gaeilge ná mar a rinne a lán de na Teachtaí ar an dtaobh eile.

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

Quote:

And I don't think you are wrong to hold that opinion at all.

The state of holding an opinion might not be 'wrong' but the state of correctness of his statement certainly was, but I suspect Mr. WFM jumped in without thinking and dare I say it, might have re-examined his position after

WeeFalorieMan · **Posted:** Wed 13 Aug 2014 8:55 pm

Jay Bee wrote:

The state of holding an opinion might not be 'wrong' but the state of correctness of his statement certainly was, but I suspect Mr. WFM jumped in without thinking and dare I say it, might have re-examined his position after

Okay, let's have a look here:

WeeFalorieMan wrote:

Well, most people might not agree with this, but here's what I think:

If I were teaching English to somebody, I would not teach them to say "Where is my keys?" – I'd go with "Where are my keys?"
If I were teaching Irish to somebody, I would not teach them that "Níl tú fliuch" is a question – I'd go with "Ná fuileann tú fliuch?"

Just my personal opinion … :dhera:

So, which part of my post is in a wrong "state of correctness"? I wouldn't teach a learner to say "Where is my keys?" because I don't think that's a good way to learn English – you disagree. I'm not necessarily "incorrect" just because I don't happen to agree with you.

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

I get you. I thought you were contesting the very act of using such constructions, which you weren't. Sorry about that

WeeFalorieMan · **Posted:** Wed 13 Aug 2014 11:18 pm

No problem. We all have the right to our opinions.

I was just saying that I wouldn't teach a learner, especially one who is just starting out, that a sentence like "Tá sé fliuch" is a question. I'd say "An bhfuil sé fliuch?".

I'm just saying what I think; I sure don't expect everybody to agree with me.

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 2985

NiallBeag wrote:

In SG, there is no such thing as a "questioning tone" as the question is expressed purely grammatically.

Besides, in English "It's not raining?" isn't a question, it's a statement of surprise and incredulity.

It is not something I’ve thought about before. So I wondered what do I really sound like when asking questions.
"An bhfuil sé fliuch?" - I don’t think my intonation changes. Not unless it’s asked in a surprising way. At least not as much as an English speaker does.
But then I don’t think my intonation changes much when questioning in English either, but that might be Hiberno-English- or the influence of my Irish on my English.

Personally, I prefer to ask question starting with “An bhfuil.... “ (etc.) . I’m not commenting at all if that is right or wrong grammatically. I don’t know. If it is in Buntús Cainte then it must be correct surely.
If I was asking a question with a statement I would usually add “nach bhfuil” (“isn’t it).
Tá sé báisteach, nach bhfuil?

WeeFalorieMan · **Posted:** Thu 14 Aug 2014 3:36 pm

Well, I'm not an expert on this but to be perfectly honest, I've never heard a "questioning tone" in Irish. The person who taught me the little I know about the language certainly never taught me that there is any sort of questioning tone in Irish. I'm not saying that this "tone" doesn't exist somewhere; maybe somebody speaks with this tone, but I've never ran across it.

Bríd Mhór wrote:

If it is in Buntús Cainte then it must be correct surely.

This is what I think is wrong with this thread. There seems to be this determination to defend everything in Buntús Cainte as though it is a perfect course with no flaws nor any room for improvement. Based on the sentences that were posted by maidofkent, I think there could be some room for improvement.

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Bríd Mhór wrote:

I don’t think my intonation changes. Not unless it’s asked in a surprising way. At least not as much as an English speaker does.
But then I don’t think my intonation changes much when questioning in English either, but that might be Hiberno-English- or the influence of my Irish on my English.

Actually one of the most obvious and coolest features of native Irish speakers to me is the steady tone they have. Learners, like myself early on, tend to say "mo cheann" a little louder just like in English "my one", but native Irish speakers just say "mo cheann-sa" without really changing intonation. Most intonation and emphasis is carried by particles like "sa" and sentence structure.

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