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PostPosted: Sat 08 Mar 2014 3:50 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
A lot of things that teachers like to call errors are just dialectal variation, and if dialectal variation is a bad thing, then the subtitles on TG4 all qualify as bad English. I mean, "I'm after doing it"? What sort of grammar is that?
Of course, there are variations in dialect, but people also make actual mistakes. I don't think 'I done' or 'I seen' is acceptable e.g. 'I done my homework' is regularly said, but not correct. 'I am after doing my homework' is probably not correct in England's English, but fine in Ireland.

As a brief aside, I met an American lady today whose child is starting in our local Gaelscoil and she was saying that she was still a bit bewildered by the English spoken in Ireland. Her example was that for her 'grand' meant 'fantastic', but that here it means only 'o.k. could be better, could be worse'! 'How are you? I'm grand' She had been assured we spoke English when persuaded to move here, but quickly learned that it was a different language from the English she spoke! Her words not mine! Everything is relative.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Mar 2014 8:59 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
I don't think 'I done' or 'I seen' is acceptable e.g. 'I done my homework' is regularly said, but not correct. 'I am after doing my homework' is probably not correct in England's English, but fine in Ireland.
So your dialectal differences are OK, but other people's aren't? There are several areas where the distinction between participle and past tense has been lost, or where the forms are inverted, and these are consistent patterns that are attested historically. Judge not lest ye be judged (spot the deliberate mistake).

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Mar 2014 10:51 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Saoirse wrote:
I don't think 'I done' or 'I seen' is acceptable e.g. 'I done my homework' is regularly said, but not correct. 'I am after doing my homework' is probably not correct in England's English, but fine in Ireland.
So your dialectal differences are OK, but other people's aren't? There are several areas where the distinction between participle and past tense has been lost, or where the forms are inverted, and these are consistent patterns that are attested historically. Judge not lest ye be judged (spot the deliberate mistake).
I don't say, 'I am after doing' things, but I fully recognise them to be valid. I'm not only accepting of my own habits. I may stand to be corrected, but I know of no dialect (in Ireland anyway) where 'I done' is considered correct. For the record, I have no doubt but that I make mistakes frequently when speaking/writing my own first language. I certainly do not claim to have perfect English. All I am suggesting is that it is a huge burden to put on someone that if a native speaker of a language says something it must be correct. We all make mistakes.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Mar 2014 11:55 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
NiallBeag wrote:
Saoirse wrote:
I don't think 'I done' or 'I seen' is acceptable e.g. 'I done my homework' is regularly said, but not correct. 'I am after doing my homework' is probably not correct in England's English, but fine in Ireland.
So your dialectal differences are OK, but other people's aren't? There are several areas where the distinction between participle and past tense has been lost, or where the forms are inverted, and these are consistent patterns that are attested historically. Judge not lest ye be judged (spot the deliberate mistake).
I don't say, 'I am after doing' things, but I fully recognise them to be valid. I'm not only accepting of my own habits. I may stand to be corrected, but I know of no dialect (in Ireland anyway) where 'I done' is considered correct. For the record, I have no doubt but that I make mistakes frequently when speaking/writing my own first language. I certainly do not claim to have perfect English. All I am suggesting is that it is a huge burden to put on someone that if a native speaker of a language says something it must be correct. We all make mistakes.


But sure by the time you had figured out that every word was in its place and correct... you might lose track..
I suppose maybe the words fall into their place better or easier the longer you have heard and spoken the language... but you couldn't be thinking about that... I'd be forgetting what I was going to say... LOL...

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar 2014 8:53 am 
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Exactly! Hence, we all make mistakes!

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar 2014 11:33 am 
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Saoirse wrote:
Exactly! Hence, we all make mistakes!

I agree that you mortals do, but surely you're leaving out people of god like perfection such as myself.

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar 2014 1:10 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
I may stand to be corrected, but I know of no dialect (in Ireland anyway) where 'I done' is considered correct.

I'd be surprised if it didn't happen in parts of Northern Ireland, given how prevalent it is in West Central Scotland.

Of course, the very fact that you're talking about it means that you've been exposed to it, so it must happen in Ireland. But of course it is "considered" wrong by a great many people and would be marked wrong by almost every teacher in the world, so you're technically correct.
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All I am suggesting is that it is a huge burden to put on someone that if a native speaker of a language says something it must be correct. We all make mistakes.

Yes, we all make mistakes, but these are one-offs. People who say "I done it" and "I seen it" do so consistently, making it a feature of their language.

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar 2014 5:33 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Saoirse wrote:
I may stand to be corrected, but I know of no dialect (in Ireland anyway) where 'I done' is considered correct.

I'd be surprised if it didn't happen in parts of Northern Ireland, given how prevalent it is in West Central Scotland.

Of course, the very fact that you're talking about it means that you've been exposed to it, so it must happen in Ireland. But of course it is "considered" wrong by a great many people and would be marked wrong by almost every teacher in the world, so you're technically correct.
Quote:
All I am suggesting is that it is a huge burden to put on someone that if a native speaker of a language says something it must be correct. We all make mistakes.

Yes, we all make mistakes, but these are one-offs. People who say "I done it" and "I seen it" do so consistently, making it a feature of their language.


"I done" - is just bad grammar.
I don't think many Irish people say that, definitely not in the Gaeltacht. I think generally speaking the Irish speak English more correctly than the British. English dialects can be very different to the "standard", especially the further north you go.

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar 2014 6:29 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Saoirse wrote:
Exactly! Hence, we all make mistakes!

I agree that you mortals do, but surely you're leaving out people of god like perfection such as myself.
Cinnte, O Wise One! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar 2014 7:04 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
"I done" - is just bad grammar.

I'm sure there's things in your personal speech that other people would decry as "bad grammar"
Quote:
I don't think many Irish people say that, definitely not in the Gaeltacht. I think generally speaking the Irish speak English more correctly than the British. English dialects can be very different to the "standard", especially the further north you go.

A large part of that perception is the same familiarity bias that sees many people saying "I don't have an accent," though. Several characteristic Hiberno-English features are extremely "wrong" to the rest of the English-speaking world. Doubling "at all at all", for example; or backwards perfect tenses like "I have the car fixed". Not to mention "he does be"...

Now consider that in Googling this, I've come across a web forum full of Dubliners decrying "I seen it" as "bog speak"... which is pretty much the same thing they'd say about Irish, isn't it...?

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