I am teaching a Bible study using the themes from the hymn "Be Thou My Vision" (Rob tu mo bhoile). In stanza/verse #9, Mary Byrne (1905) translated the Irish word "chotlud" to be the English word "beloved." That doesn't seem to make any sense; all of my on-line research suggests chotlud means "sleep." Does anyone have an explanation for why this word would be translated "beloved" instead of "sleep?" (Mo chuit, mo chotlud, ar meit do grada BECAME My treasure, my beloved, through the greatness of thy love." Please forgive the lack of proper Irish punctuation here, and thank you for any suggestions. /SB

The version of "Be Thou My Vision" you're using is the original, which is in Old Irish...quite different to Contemporary Irish, which is what most of us here have. I think there may be one or two here who have studied Old Irish who can help you, but it might be useful for you to edit your post title to put "Old Irish" in it, so they'll be more likely to see it.

Redwolf

Okay - thank you. /SB

Hi Sue, I have locked your other thread as it will only cause confusion having two threads for people to reply to. A discussion may happen partly on one and then partly on the other. What Redwolf had suggested was to simply edit your original post in this thread. I have done that for you so hopefully someone will be able to help with your query soon. Welcome to ILF, by the way! Saoirse.

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Thank you - I couldn't find a way to "edit" anything! /SB

Ah...it's possible that you have to have a certain number of posts to be able to edit. Sorry 'bout that.

The reason I want someone who's spent time studying Old Irish to look at this is that translation is a very inexact science, especially when you're dealing with idioms, and particularly when you're dealing with poetry. I'm guessing that "cotlud" (the "h" after the "c" is probably an inflection) is, indeed, related to "codladh" ("sleep") in Contemporary Irish, but it's entirely possible it's also part of an idiom that implies love. It's also possible that the translation is a rather free one.

Would it be possible to get the entire sentence rather than just the line? That would help as well. Irish has a very different syntax from English, and it's possible they're getting "beloved" from another part of the sentence.

Redwolf

Yes, the entire "stanza" in Old Irish is as follows, followed by Mary Byrne's 1905 English translation:

Co talla forum,
ré n-dul it láma,
mo chuit, mo chotlud,
ar méit do gráda.
Rop tussu t' áenur
m' urrann úais amra:
ní chuinngim daíne
ná maíne marba.

Till I am able to pass into thy hands,
My treasure, my beloved, through the greatness of thy love.
Be thou alone my noble and wondrous estate.
I seek not men, nor lifeless wealth.

Thanks for taking a look! /SB

If someone is teaching something with Old Irish in it how would you not know it was OI?

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Some people don't know that there is a difference between Old Irish and Contemporary Irish. This song is a staple in the Church of England and Anglican churches throughout the world. Just because someone knows the song and wants to teach from it doesn't mean he or she knows all that much about the Irish language.

We have people coming here all the time asking for "Old Irish" or "Old Gaelic" translations when they really mean Contemporary Irish...it's really not all that uncommon a misunderstanding.

Here's more on the poem/song, if you're curious:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Thou_My_Vision

Redwolf

I get you. The OP's position is understandable but the others, their ignorance borders sometimes on almost racism

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