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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:06 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
Domhnall, would you say it is an Ulsterism? Or is it found in Munster Irish too? As Daithí said, people in CD may have used it because they believed it was more likely to be understood - or maybe it is just a phrase the Munster authors I read most don't like for whatever reason and never used.


Well, Patrick, it's very prevalent in Ulster, and I honestly can't say that I hear Munster or Connachta speakers using it, but that doesn't mean they don't. I'd say if you haven't come across it in your Munster reading, then probably it's not so typical down there. Would be easily understood, of course.

Domhnall

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:09 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
FGB?
"Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla", is dócha :)


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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:11 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
FGB?


FGB = Foclóir Gaeilge Béarla de chuid Néill Uí Dhónaill, le fáil anseo: http://breis.focloir.ie/ga

Domhnall

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Last edited by AnBraonach on Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:12 pm 
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AnBraonach wrote:
Well, Patrick, it's very prevalent in Ulster, and I honestly can't say that I hear Munster or Connachta speakers using it, but that doesn't mean they don't. I'd say if you haven't come across it in your Munster reading, then probably it's not so typical down there. Would be easily understood, of course.

Domhnall


Well, I should have checked before answering.

Daithí, how was the shiúl pronounced? /x'u:l/ or /hu:l/ when your CD people said it?


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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:19 pm 
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So far I only heard it pronounced like /er' x'u:l/.
Normally slender sh + ú has a slender ch sound.

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 5:29 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
So far I only heard it pronounced like /er' x'u:l/.
Normally slender sh + ú has a slender ch sound.


A Lúghaidh, it is possible straightforward like that in Ulster Irish, and theoretically should be everywhere, but see IWM, paragraphs 382 and 383.


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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 6:39 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:

Well, I should have checked before answering.

Daithí, how was the shiúl pronounced? /x'u:l/ or /hu:l/ when your CD people said it?


Im afraid i never got around to learning the phonetic alphabet , but sounded almost like a slender ch.
But it is very possible they just modified their speech in a way they presumed I would more easily understand.

I can always ask next time someone says it :)

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 6:45 pm 
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One viewpoint is that of literal vs. metaphoric usage, for example ar bhord would be on a table while ar bord would be on a ship.

Have ye heard of the notion of 'semantic frames'? You could think of the idea of parallel realities around the objective one, so for example, in the sun comes out and the fire goes out, in the former, the sun is sort of hiding from the viewer but enters the frame ('comes 'in') and in the latter, the fire leaves the common space (goes 'out'). Get it?

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 7:02 pm 
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"Ar" is a funny one, and the explanations in grammar books don't seem to help much.

The Collins book I'm using says:

"It aspirates nouns when they indicate a general situation"

and it doesn't aspirate nouns when:
"...they portray general position."
"...they portray a state or condition."
"...they are related to time."

Unfortunately the examples in the book lend no real clarity to what the difference between "a general situation" and "a state or condition" is...!

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 7:10 pm 
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Although this...
Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
Tá tú ar siúl arís -your at it again

...presumably falls into the "state or condition" category, as they use the example Bhí sé ar meisce (he was drunk).

The most confusing example is "Tá cóta ar Sheán". Why is that a "general situation"? Why not a "state"? I don't know, but it's in the same sort of category of "ar shiúl" for away. He's on a journey. I would call that a state, personally, so that's a weakness in the grammar book I'm using.

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