Post up a link to what your thinking of buying and we will let you know. Breandán has a good point in that you could get Ó Siadhail and then use other aids to get you speaking. It is a fantastic resource, using native speakers as Lughaidh said but I would never recommend it to complete beginners, I was only able to make it half way through because I had a grounding in Irish already. I would say go with a course that gets you speaking instead.

In my view a learner will never sound like a native, so thats why the non-native speaker thing doesn't really bother me. While of course its better to learn from a native for your pronunciation, I just haven't the time to master native pronunciation otherwise i'd never learn anything of substance. I know my attitude isn't the best if you aim to sound like a native, but if you want to get having basic conversations fast just go for it.

Why not try some free online courses first? www.rte.ie/easyirish

I used it when I was a complete beginner



There are learners who manage to sound like natives. I know some. And anyway if you can sound almost like a native, it's fine. Normally, the people who're learning a language try to sound as native-like as possible, I mean, when you learn a language, your aim is not to speak badly.



wouldn't you bother if you learned French and if you heard that the people who're speaking in your French self-teaching stuff have the same English accent as you? That never happens, except with Irish and Breton. These are the 2 only languages I know, whose self-teaching material is recorded, most of the time, by people who aren't native speakers and who don't pronounce properly...

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

True, but it's not like Turas Teanga is not authentic Irish just because some of the speakers are not natives. Its an excellent resource and all the speakers are fluent, most if not all of the actors are natives and I am not aware of any that aren't other than the presenter who has excellent Irish. Its always preferable to learn from a native but I also think its important to learn the language, I dont think I would have learnt to speak Irish from Ó Siadhail at all had I not switched to other aids half way through that focused on speaking.

You are indeed special if you managed to stick with it as a beginner! I hope your man does the same, I'm sure it works for some people. Ó Siadhail did wonders for me reading, it was excellent, it's just my preference to get speaking rather than reading.

they should all be native speakers. Once again, in Spanish or German or French learning DVDs, all speakers are native speakers because otherwise it would be ridiculous. Why don't they do the same with Irish? Finding native speakers is very easy, just go to the Gaeltacht and ask people.



it's possible to be fluent and not being able to pronounce properly, it's even possible to be fluent and to make ten mistakes in every sentence. Fluent means that you don't stop at every second word when you're talking. It doesn't mean you speak properly.



definitely not all of them, just listen, you can tell who aren't native from their pronunciation.



can't you learn the language from natives only?...



I don't remember, really. I remember I would copy the grammar stuff etc, but I don't remember precisely. I hadn't bought the recordings because they were too expensive then, I learnt pronunciation from songs (by Altan and Clannad and other singers from Donegal).
In general I learnt a lot from songs and by making translations, and from many other things I can't remember because it was more than 10 years ago

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

That’s a matter of definition, and ‘fluent’ is one of those words (like ‘language’ itself) that doesn’t have a precise definition. It means something slightly different to different people.

To me personally, ‘fluent’ has little to do with whether or not you stop frequently when speaking—some people do that in their native tongue, as well. ‘Fluency’ to me is native or near-native grasp of the language, including (but not limited to) its pronunciation, idiom, humour, slang, social circumstances, body language, etc. Until you have that, you’re not ‘fluent’ (which is also why I call myself fluent in only two languages: Danish and English).

But other people set the bar according to different criteria, and there is no decisively ‘correct’ definition.

_________________
Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.

I disagree. A learner will learn what they are exposed to. If they are exposed to native Irish pronunciation, they will learn native Irish pronunciation. If exposed to a creole, they will learn the creole. That's why more exposure to native Irish is important. I personally have never wanted to learn anything but native Irish.

"Learning Irish" _is_ difficult on your own, it took me several attempts to get through it by myself (there weren't many Irish teachers in Japan). The difference nowadays is that there are resources like this site and others to help people through the difficult bits.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

I think the choice of learning products is a highly individual one that has a lot more to do with how one learns than anything else. That, and what one's primary goals are. If the aim is to arrive quickly at competency with communication in the language, then learning from native speakers is secondary to learning from a resource that will get you speaking and understanding right away (of course, both would be ideal, but we don't always have that luxury). Pronunciation and correct use of idiom can (and generally will) be refined later, as the student's confidence with speaking and understanding grows, and as he or she is exposed to a wider variety of speakers.

I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but in the States we're accustomed to language teachers often NOT being native speakers. At least two years of a foreign language is required to graduate from high school in many states and it can be hard to find enough native speakers of any given language who are also qualified to teach.

Redwolf

A lot depends, too, on what is meant by "sounds like a native." If by that you mean "speaks without an accent, so a native speaker of the language would never guess you came from some place else," the reality is that's something that most adult language learners never will attain (acquiring an accent that isn't native to you IS doable -- look at the English actors such as Hugh Laurie and Orlando Bloom who manage to learn very authentic American accents -- but it takes a much better ear and a lot more intensive coaching than most people realize). If, on the other hand, by "sounds like a native" you mean someone pronounces words correctly and uses idiom correctly and naturally, that IS very doable, and something we should all hope to attain.

Redwolf

While what you say is true, Redwolf, the earlier one introduces better pronunciation, or at least an awareness of the difference, the less reprogramming has to be done later. It is much, much harder to correct mistakes further down the line.

This is a major problem of language learning in the States and Australia. Kids who learn Japanese in high school here have to be completely retrained at uni for a year before they can join the natively-trained beginners who get the right start. They have to ditch six years of incorrect learning and start all over again. But because they think they can already speak the language, they have a bigger hurdle in learning real Japanese. Their bad habits get in the way.

It would be better not to teach kids Japanese at school at all, because what they are learning is not really Japanese. My kids are already semi-fluent in Japanese. I wouldn't want them to be taught by a non-native teacher at all.

Also, the idea that grammar can be divorced from and learned separately from pronunciation may be a mistake in itself. Languages by definition are first and foremost spoken words. The grammar really comes from and only exists because of certain regularities in the pronunciation. "Grammar" is really just an attempt to formalise the spoken patterns. You can't begin to reproduce the proper patterns if you haven't learned the proper sound distinctions to begin with.

The case that comes to mind again is Japanese. Japanese people who learn English through katakana have a hell of a time being understood by anyone except other people who learned through katakana. Learning (or teaching) creole Irish is just like Japanese teaching people English through katakana - it might expedite the process but you are not teaching people the language just a simulacrum of the language, a toy model.

Sometimes giving kids toys (think musical instruments here) can encourage them to take up the real thing later on, but if the toy is too crappy it can actually have the reverse effect. Early awareness of the difference is important.

I'd have been really upset if I found out after years of study that my Irish was katakana-like, a creole. Unfortunately, like people who learned Japanese in high school here, that's the case with so many people who have been taught Irish through the schools (or glitsy "modern" Irish textbooks and media).

If only we had the resources to teach real Irish the same way. Failing that, we should be able at least to point out to people what constitutes the good stuff and what not (subjective as that may be ).

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

if you wait too long, it'll be hard to correct your pronunciation mistakes, once you are used to these mistakes.


we were talking about self-teaching stuff like DVDs or CDs. You don't need thousands of people to make these.



yeah, pronouncing words correctly is doable. If you imitate Gaeltacht native speakers

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne