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PostPosted: Mon 15 Apr 2013 6:05 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
However, a connection between tuig and "twig" does seem quite plausible.

For the derivation of "twig", SOED (Shorter Oxford) simply says "Origin unknown". I often see this even in cases where there is a word in Irish that clearly has the same meaning as the English.

The complication here is that the meanings do not line up completely. The full OED actually lists three definitions: "1. a. To watch; to look at; to inspect. b. To become aware of by seeing; to perceive, discern, catch sight of; to recognize. 2. a. To understand, comprehend." Moreover, the definition are listed chronologically, so the one which is closest to the Irish is actually the last attested. (And by a margin of half a century.)

Another issue is the source of the attestations. AFAICT, none come from Irish sources. One of the earliest [1821], for instance, is from the daughter of the Lady Georgiana Spencer, Lady Harriet Cavendish (who became Countess Granville by her marriage to Granville Leveson-Gower). In her letters, she uses the word in both sense 1b. and 2a. This obviously weakens the case for an Irish etymology, since we'd naturally expect to see the word appear in Hiberno-English or at least in the works of Anglo-Irish writers before being used by West Country English aristocracy.

Breandán wrote:
How does one go about finding out if a particular line of investigation has already been pursued and discounted or whether the people involved simply aren't aware of the Irish Gaelic word and a possible connection thereto?

You do a literature search. The OED is fine as a jumping-off point, but it's strongest with inherited English words and relatively weak (IMHO) with presumed borrowings. For those, the AHD is better (if you search twig there you'll find "[Perhaps from Irish Gaelic tuig-, stem of tuigim, I understand, from Old Irish tuicim.]"). There are also pure etymological dictionaries such as Chamber's, but they generally aren't available online..

If it's good enough for you that some lexicographer somewhere has seen fit to consider the etymology plausible, then you stop there. Otherwise it's to the journals to see if someone's written in more detail about the proposed etymologies and the amount of support for each one.


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Apr 2013 6:12 pm 
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Domhnaillín Breac wrote:
Breandán wrote:
However, a connection between tuig and "twig" does seem quite plausible.

For the derivation of "twig", SOED (Shorter Oxford) simply says "Origin unknown". I often see this even in cases where there is a word in Irish that clearly has the same meaning as the English.

The complication here is that the meanings do not line up completely. The full OED actually lists three definitions: "1. a. To watch; to look at; to inspect. b. To become aware of by seeing; to perceive, discern, catch sight of; to recognize. 2. a. To understand, comprehend." Moreover, the definition are listed chronologically, so the one which is closest to the Irish is actually the last attested. (And by a margin of half a century.)

Another issue is the source of the attestations. AFAICT, none come from Irish sources. One of the earliest [1821], for instance, is from the daughter of the Lady Georgiana Spencer, Lady Harriet Cavendish (who became Countess Granville by her marriage to Granville Leveson-Gower). In her letters, she uses the word in both sense 1b. and 2a. This obviously weakens the case for an Irish etymology, since we'd naturally expect to see the word appear in Hiberno-English or at least in the works of Anglo-Irish writers before being used by West Country English aristocracy.

Breandán wrote:
How does one go about finding out if a particular line of investigation has already been pursued and discounted or whether the people involved simply aren't aware of the Irish Gaelic word and a possible connection thereto?

You do a literature search. The OED is fine as a jumping-off point, but it's strongest with inherited English words and relatively weak (IMHO) with presumed borrowings. For those, the AHD is better (if you search twig there you'll find "[Perhaps from Irish Gaelic tuig-, stem of tuigim, I understand, from Old Irish tuicim.]"). There are also pure etymological dictionaries such as Chamber's, but they generally aren't available online..

If it's good enough for you that some lexicographer somewhere has seen fit to consider the etymology plausible, then you stop there. Otherwise it's to the journals to see if someone's written in more detail about the proposed etymologies and the amount of support for each one.

Excellent explanation. Thank you. :GRMA:

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PostPosted: Tue 16 Apr 2013 5:50 pm 
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I knew about the baseball connection with "jazz", but there are also supposed to be indications that the word was already in use in the jazz community in New Orleans (where there were strong interactions between Black and Irish immigrant musicians), and that was apparently just the first time it appeared in print. Still, I agree that it's all just theory, and we'll probably never know.

Just one caution as to the etymologies in dictionaries, even the venerable OED. When it comes to some words in English, the etymologies given in order to tie them to proto-Indo-European roots can be very strained. As I've mentioned before, there is a (still disputed by some) theory that up to a third of the basic Germanic vocabulary comes from a pre-Indo European "substrate" which was found in Northern Europe when the proto-Indo-European speakers arrived there, but none of the major dictionaries seem willing even to admit the possibility, so they often propose very tenuous proto-Indo-European origins for words. Tellingly, etymologies sometimes stop at some early stage of Germanic and go no further back. That can mean (though it does not necessarily have to mean) that the etymologist couldn't come up with even a strained connection from that point to proto-Indo-European.

Please don't confuse what I'm saying here with the debate that occurred on the forum recently about origins of words in the pre-Indo-European language(s) spoken in the Balkan area. There are certainly traces of substrates in most languages,including Greek (place names ending in -ossos, for example, like Knossos), and it only makes sense that some traces of earlier languages do survive when a new "prestige" language takes over. What I'm talking about, though, is a specific theory as to the Germanic languages, where there are indications that the incoming proto-Indo-European speakers came into contact with a culture which engaged in sea-faring and had other attributes, such as a formal kingship, for which the incomers did not have adequate terminology, and where a significant portion of the older terminology survived. The classic examples are sea-faring words like boat, ship and sail; the cardinal directions, North, South, East, and West; titles like king; and some colors, such as blue. The Germanic words for these things are arguably not of Indo-European origin (please note that I said "arguably").

And, before anyone objects to say that those names for the cardinal directions, and even the color name blue, are also shared by some Romance languages, please note that it's historically fairly clear that those languages adopted those words from Germanic invaders, though not all in the same form or to the same extent. For example, the words bleu and blu made it into French and Italian, but azul (of Latin origin) survived in Spanish. And also, lest someone propose that Irish bád shows that boat has an Indo-European origin, note that bád (like seol for sail) is believed to have come into Irish from Norse (a Germanic language), in the same way that long did. Of course, it might also have come from an Irish substrate that was related to the same substrate at work in the Germanic languages. We will probably never really know, unless some aliens who visited us milennia ago kept good records and can tell us more. :mrgreen:

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Last edited by CaoimhínSF on Thu 18 Apr 2013 4:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 16 Apr 2013 9:06 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
I knew about the baseball connection with "jazz", but there are also supposed to be indications that the word was already in use in the jazz community in New Orleans (where there were strong interactions between Black and Irish immigrant musicians), and that was apparently just the first time it appeared in print.

No, the first time it appeared in print in reference to music was in Chicago, not New Orleans, and there are contemporary sources which claim the term was unknown in New Orleans at the time. As you say, we'll likely never know, but I think several factors speak against an Irish etymology.

CaoimhínSF wrote:
Just one caution as to the etymologies in dictionaries, even the venerable OED. When it comes to some words in English, the etymologies given in order to tie them to proto-Indo-European roots can be very strained. As I've mentioned before, there is a (still much disputed) theory that up to a third of the basic Germanic vocabulary comes from a pre-Indo European "substrate" which was found in Northern Europe when the proto-Indo-European speakers arrived there[.]

It's funny that you call this "still much disputed" when, as far as I can see, it's been the consensus in the field since I started studying linguistics in the 80s. No, sources like the OED don't give "Old European" etymologies but, as I say, they're poor when it comes to borrowings from outside PIE regardless of time depth. How many times do they say "from an American Indian word" when we know full well the language family and often the exact variety?


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Apr 2013 4:14 am 
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Quote:
It's funny that you call this "still much disputed" when, as far as I can see, it's been the consensus in the field since I started studying linguistics in the 80s. No, sources like the OED don't give "Old European" etymologies but, as I say, they're poor when it comes to borrowings from outside PIE regardless of time depth. How many times do they say "from an American Indian word" when we know full well the language family and often the exact variety?


I agree that it's not disputed in Germanic language circles. When I did my German masters program in the 90's it was accepted as a given. I've heard that some other linguists dispute it, though, and someone on the old forum cited chapter and verse by some "experts" who said it was nonsense. I've gone back and changed my expression to "disputed by some".

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PostPosted: Wed 24 Apr 2013 8:01 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
For the derivation of "twig", SOED (Shorter Oxford) simply says "Origin unknown". I often see this even in cases where there is a word in Irish that clearly has the same meaning as the English.


It might be a difficult admission for some good folk to make.

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