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 Post subject: Re: "Dh"
PostPosted: Fri 01 Feb 2013 5:38 pm 
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Scottish pronunciation... Not Japanese :darklaugh:


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 Post subject: Re: "Dh"
PostPosted: Fri 01 Feb 2013 5:41 pm 
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Annabeth wrote:
Scottish pronunciation... Not Japanese :darklaugh:

:LOL:

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: "Dh"
PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013 10:08 am 
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The thing to remember is that "lenition" (often incorrectly referred to as "aspiration") is a process, not a sound. Some sounds are slightly lenited, some are very lenited.

Lenition comes from the Latin for "weakening", but I prefer the term the Welsh use: softening. Consonants are like butter: the softer they get, the more they spread.

-dh at the end... now that sometimes becomes oo-like in Irish, as said above. That's because the consonant "butter" has spread to the vowel, and the consonant has been completely incorporated into the "bread" of the vowel. In most accents of Scottish Gaelic, the ending -adh for verbal nouns shows a less extreme lenition -- some of the oo-like butter has spread to the A, modifying its pronunciation, but the DH is still pronounced too, it's just quite short and light.

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 Post subject: Re: "Dh"
PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
The thing to remember is that "lenition" (often incorrectly referred to as "aspiration") is a process, not a sound. Some sounds are slightly lenited, some are very lenited.


what do you mean? A consonant is lenited or not, but it can't be more or less lenited... :?:

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 Post subject: Re: "Dh"
PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013 6:42 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
The thing to remember is that "lenition" (often incorrectly referred to as "aspiration") is a process, not a sound. Some sounds are slightly lenited, some are very lenited.


what do you mean? A consonant is lenited or not, but it can't be more or less lenited... :?:

Actually, I think I understand what NiallBeag means here.

Lenited consonants like all consonants (and indeed all sounds in a language) map to spectra that don't necessarily have clear-cut boundaries. The position of each consonant on its spectral map is influenced by the sounds around it and therefore shifts somewhat from word to word.

The exyent of these influences may also change over time and in some cases consonants have gotten lenited completely out of existence (i.e., t -> th -> h -> ∅).

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: SG: "Dh"
PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013 9:32 pm 
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That's something to think about 8O Thanks for the input!


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 Post subject: Re: SG: "Dh"
PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013 9:59 pm 
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Quote:
Lenited consonants like all consonants (and indeed all sounds in a language) map to spectra that don't necessarily have clear-cut boundaries. The position of each consonant on its spectral map is influenced by the sounds around it and therefore shifts somewhat from word to word.


it doesn't mean the consonant is more or less lenited, it just means that the sound caused by the lenition may change.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: SG: "Dh"
PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013 10:04 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
Lenited consonants like all consonants (and indeed all sounds in a language) map to spectra that don't necessarily have clear-cut boundaries. The position of each consonant on its spectral map is influenced by the sounds around it and therefore shifts somewhat from word to word.


it doesn't mean the consonant is more or less lenited, it just means that the sound caused by the lenition may change.

What it means, Lughaidh, is that the "same" dh (i.e., lenited d) can be a different sound in different words (and in different positions in words).

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: SG: "Dh"
PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb 2013 1:47 am 
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Quote:
What it means, Lughaidh, is that the "same" dh (i.e., lenited d) can be a different sound in different words (and in different positions in words).


I know that, but it doesn't mean a sound can be more or less lenited. It is lenited or not ; the way it's pronounced according to context is something else. Lenition is a grammatical thing ; the realisation of a phoneme is a phonetical thing.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: SG: "Dh"
PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb 2013 3:25 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
What it means, Lughaidh, is that the "same" dh (i.e., lenited d) can be a different sound in different words (and in different positions in words).


I know that, but it doesn't mean a sound can be more or less lenited. It is lenited or not ; the way it's pronounced according to context is something else. Lenition is a grammatical thing ; the realisation of a phoneme is a phonetical thing.

Since languages are by nature phonetic phenomena, isn't grammar really just a way to explain systematically what is really happening phonetically? That is to say, the phonetics (i.e., the sounds) is what is really happening in a language, "grammar" is just something linguists construct to try to systematise and explain what is happening with the sounds.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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