It would be nice if you were to post everything about the copula. Since Nótaí an Loin Dhuibh is specifically for learners of Munster Irish, you could let us know whenever you are referring to something that does not exist in Munster Irish or you could put all non-Munster things in a separate section or maybe show them as footnotes.

As you can see, a Sheáin, before we even get to the specific question here, there are two conflicting views about the copula, the "permanent vs transitive" model and the "nouns vs everything else", both of which have elements of truth and neither of which is perfect in and of itself.

The only sure thing I know about the copula is that if you express either one of these views on its own, the other camp will be sure to shoot you down as a heathen or a traitor. (Welcome to Irish. )


The "permanent vs transitive" model runs into problems given that nothing is really ever permanent - even Is fear é is not guaranteed to be permanent in this day and age. (The "permanent" in this model is really only "semi-permanent", expressing "_what_ something is" (at a given point in time). The transitive element expresses "_how_ or _where_ something is".)

The "nouns vs everything else" model also encounters problems because the copula gets used with adjectives for emphasis (no doubt from its "permanent" feel ), i.e., Is maith (é) sin "That's good!", and in "fronting" where any element of the sentence, be it a noun, an adverb, or an adjective, can be brought to the front of the sentence for emphasis, i.e., Is sa chistin atá sé "He's in the _kitchen_" literally "It is in the kitchen that he is."

It's a chicken-and-egg type problem given that nouns tend to be used for permanent descriptions and adjectives and adverbs for transient states anyway - but whichever way you try to explain it you'll run into problems.

Being a relativist, I am happy to believe in both at the same time, and use whichever suits me for the purposes at hand, just as I can safely assume that the world is "flat" when it suits me, such as when I am building something around my house and don't have to allow for the curvature of the earth (or the curvature of the space-time continuum for that matter.) Or to use another analogy, does the sun revolve around the earth or vice versa? Answer: both - they both revolve around each other and perturb each other's orbits in proportion to their mass as do all bodies with mass in the solar system.

The fact is that both of these explanations work only in a very general way and neither is a panacea, in the end you just have to learn lots of examples.

That's where An Lon Dubh's explanation may come in very handy.


@An Lon Dubh - I'd suggest placing your entire explanation in Nótaí an Loin Dhuibh and having a discussion thread in the main forum to look at it in more detail if we need to. (What's the bet we don't end up having this exact same argument all over again in the discussion thread? )

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Well that's the eternal problem in most languages -- there's space in between "permanent" and "transient". When you talk about "a quiet child", it may not be permanent, but it is "characteristic". Which is quite fuzzy, of course.

Or how about we look at it in a less technical way: "it's in his nature". Consider when you say "is maith liom..." -- there's something in the nature of thing that agrees with me.

I agree that there's not a one-rule-to-ring-them-all, but I personally believe you're better off learning with a fuzzy meaning-based rule and then trying to incorporate exceptions into it in order to have some kind of logic (regardless of the fact that the logic is specific only to your current language) than just learning lots of examples without any idea of why they mean what they mean.

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A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.

Depends. Rules are really for non-native adult learners. Most natives actually just learn lots of examples without any idea of why they mean what they mean - until one day they have amassed enough statistical data to have a pretty fair idea of what they mean without really knowing why.

Once again, there is no reason you can't use both approaches concurrently (in a fuzzy kind of way).

I believe permanent vs transient generally covers it for me, but I also cross-check it with the noun vs everything else rule occasionally, and I constantly add examples to my repertoire that support either or both (or sometimes neither) model (mostly subconsciously of course).

The most important thing in learning a language (or anything in life) is to try to remain flexible.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

I know you were just throwing it out there Breandán...I wasn't taking it personally I just wanted explication in tandem with technical gramadach speaky-time.
So...Tuigim...more or less I think. You're probably right and I look forward to that AHA! moment...er...

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Níl mórán Gaeilge agam (fós). Is foghlaimeoir mé...agus is breá liom é!

Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste, ná Béarla cliste.

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