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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 7:05 am 
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Breandán...
You threw this ( viewtopic.php?f=28&p=15941#p15941) out there as if just maybe it was presumed one ought to be born knowing what you're talking about.

So please, explain...this link is all I could find (it's late and I'm tired) and for someone whose only really just begun this trip it's kinda just abit like showing me calculus on my first day of remedial algebra:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul4.htm


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 12:35 pm 
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Oops. Sorry, a Sheáin, for dropping it on you before you were prepared for it, but the question was for my benefit more than yours. Sorry for the inconvenience. :wave: If it is any consolation, the link you found was on the right track. ;)

The answer is kind of in your signature, as well, but basically there are two "verbs" in Irish (the copula is and the verb ()) that correspond to the verb "to be" in English, and it is necessary to distinguish them to make sense in Irish (though other English speakers will probably understand what you are trying to say).

The copula is used to equate two nouns:

Is fear mé "I am a man" (not tá sé fear*)
Is foghlaimeoir é "He is a learner"
Is Seápánach í mo bhean "My wife is Japanese", i.e., "a Japanese person"

For "A is a B" in English, the pattern in Irish is usually Is B (é/í) A.

is used for states and descriptions:

Tá mé anseo. "I am here"
Tá sé tinn "He is sick".
Tá an aimsir go hálainn. "The weather is beautiful."

Use if the complement of the sentence (the part that isn't the subject) is an adjective or an adverb.

That's the basics. Beginners need to starting look out for this sooner rather than later.

The situation in your hint in the game, however, is a bit more complicated because amárach, etc., are usually adverbs but were functioning as nouns in the sentences in question. In fact, the situation is so special I am not even sure if I am right or if your original is correct, which is why I asked for confirmation or correction.

Again, sorry for dropping it on you before you were ready. One day you may look back on this and say "oh, so _that's_ what he was on about."

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 1:20 pm 
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Seán wrote:


Under "Uses of the Copula" it gives Is as Corcaigh sé. 8O


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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 1:24 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
Seán wrote:


Under "Uses of the Copula" it gives Is as Corcaigh sé. 8O

:facepalm: (In case anyone is wondering, it should be Is as Corcaigh é, not .)

(Also this is an idiom that seems to break the noun rule, but there are a number of exceptions to the basics - as with anything to do with Irish. :LOL: )

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 4:34 pm 
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Quote:
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul4.htm

I think they should have mentioned:

Dochtúir is ea é. = Is dochtúir é.

and

Is ó Chorcaigh é. = Is as Corcaigh é.

They're very common (in Munster anyway).


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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 5:14 pm 
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Actually Breandán it doesn't break the noun rule, sort of. In truth the copula has really "only" one rule. I've been planning
to make a big post in Nótaí an Loin Dhuibh about the copula to explain everything about it, using sample sentences from different
pieces of literature.

However what I was wondering is that since it isn't specific to Munster Irish, should it go in a general thread, or would it be okay in my notes?

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 5:58 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
(Also this is an idiom that seems to break the noun rule, but there are a number of exceptions to the basics - as with anything to do with Irish. :LOL: )

All rules in language are fuzzy. Where any language has two "bes", the distinction is usually one of permanent vs transient characteristics.

Tá mé anseo -- transient, I can change where I am.
Is as Corcaigh mé -- permanent, I can't change where I was born.

The nouns vs everything else thing is a pattern (not really a rule) that emerged as a consequence of this.

And in fact claiming that it is nouns vs everything else is built on a circular arguement, as you then have to claim that "I am" nationalities are nouns rather than adjectives, and the only proof they're nouns is the fact that they occur in this structure, which is noun-only only if nationalities are specifically nouns, not adjectives... (This is a point so fiddly and irrelevant that many actually languages simply don't care enough to make a clear distinction....)

And then of course once you define it as nouns vs everything else, you've invented a whole lot of exceptions.

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 6:25 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
However what I was wondering is that since it isn't specific to Munster Irish, should it go in a general thread, or would it be okay in my notes?

Not that my vote counts for much, but I'd say leave it in your own notes. Anytime you explain a point of grammar or idiom, there's bound to be some overlap with other dialects. The Ulster/Connacht gurus can always start their own thread to discuss the similarities and differences.

NiallBeag wrote:
Where any language has two "bes", the distinction is usually one of permanent vs transient characteristics.

Tá mé anseo -- transient, I can change where I am.
Is as Corcaigh mé -- permanent, I can't change where I was born.

This distinction doesn't apply to Irish though.

Is páiste ciún é Seán = Seán is a quiet child

You wouldn't expect Seán to remain a child forever. And don't expect any child to remain quiet for too long.

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 6:25 pm 
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Of course, the permanent vs. transitive model has problems as well. For example, a student once asked me "should I say 'tá mé feoilséantóir?' After all, I haven't always been a vegetarian, and I may not always be a vegetarian, so it's not necessarily a permanent quality."

What I've tended to tell beginners is, in general, "is" is for what you are and "tá" is for your state or condition...an oversimplification, I know, but less confusing for newbies than the "permanent vs. transitive" model.

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Thu 03 Jan 2013 6:39 pm 
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The only rule that is true there is that "is" is used to link nouns and/or pronouns together (and sometimes nouns/pronouns with adjectives), and "tá" is used to link nouns/pronouns with other stuff (to say how or where something or someone is, etc)

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