It is currently Sat 15 Feb 2025 3:48 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 144 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 6:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
I propose to put notes and engage in discussion on this book here. I think we can read 3 pages a day. The text starts on p13. I will write notes on pp13-15 in the next half an hour. As you can see from the preface, the book is in Munster Irish, but Pádraig Ó Fiannaíochta, the editor, who was also a Kerry native speaker, did drop some dialectal features. All books in Munster Irish have this flaw.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 6:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Mám: mountain pass. It is f (feminine) in FGB (Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla), but "an Mám" in the book title shows it is masculine in the dialect.
Ó dheas: to the south. The ó has nothing to do with the word ó meaning "from". It has a different etymology. It's best to learn ó dheas and ó thuaidh as phrases.

p13
Mé: me, but from what I know from Cork Irish, this should be a short vowel, "me".
Ag baile: at home = sa bhaile in Cork Irish.
Eanáir: January. This is a revived word, as the traditional phrase was "an chéad mhí den bhliain". I was told in Muskerry it is actually pronounced Eanair, but I expect that pronunciations vary among native speakers.
An ghrian ar an tslí síos di: the sun on its way down. I like the way there is no possessive and you have to have the definite "an tslí" and then "di". But it should be "ar an slí". PÓF is using Standard grammar that has "abolished" the dative case and so thinks it has to be "an tslí" here as it would be in the nominative.
Scalladh: to scald.
Mhuire Mháthairín Dé: this utterance, which seems here to mean in context "to tell the truth" is a vocative "O Mary, (little) Mother of God".
Éinne: aon duine.
Sula: both sula and sara are found in this work.
D'árdaíos mo sheólta: I raised my sails (ie set out into the world).
Mé fhéin: me héin. Fh has a zero pronunciation and if the pronunciation with h is intended, it should be written h.
Ar mo leabhar breac: breac means "speckled", but FGB has this phrase as "on my solemn oath". Probably a reference to An Leabhar Breac, a 15th-century manuscript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Leabhar_Breac)
Dlúthdhíosca amuigh agam: to have a compact disc out/published. Amuigh should be edited as amu' as there is no slender g pronounced.
Mo chroí 'on diabhal go: I swear that (literally, "my heart to the devil"). Diabhal is pronounced dial.
Is cuma: no matter, never mind.
An dara cnoc is áirde in Éirinn: the second highest mountain in Ireland. An tarna cnuc is aoirde is what I would write. PÓF may have standardised this.
Paróiste: pronounced próiste.
Cúig mhíle: five miles. I'm familiar with chúig mhíle with lenition.
Taobh thiar de: behind.
Saolaíodh mé: I was brought in the world (i.e. born).
Cabhair Dé chugainn:
with God's help or thanks to God. I would write chúinn. Chugainn is standardisation.
Ní raibh aon fhios fén spéir agam: I had no knowledge at all. Fén spéir is interesting - I had no knowledge under the sky. Maybe we would say under the sun in English.
Ar an seoinseáil ainme: the change/changing of name. Note that this is in the dative, but PÓF doesn't add t to seoinseáil, constrasting with what he did with ar an tslí.
Bhí orm: I had to.
Teastas breithe: birth certificate. I would say teastas bertha, as breithe seems to me to mean judgement.

Epenthetic vowels: orm (oram), amhránaíochta (amharánaíochta), gurb (gurab, as it is written in the text here), Colm (Colam), athraíodar (atharaíodar), aigne (aigine), ainme (ainime),


Last edited by djwebb2021 on Wed 11 Dec 2024 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 7:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
p14
Don sagart: or don tsagart in Cork Irish.
N'fheaca: I didn't see (ní fheaca).
Chonac: I saw, Pronounced chunnac or chnuc.
Leathgháire: a bit of a laugh or a smile.
An t-ainm: standardisation for what should be an ainm.
Uncail: pronounced úncail. This English word seems to be used in native Irish now. Driotháir athar/máthar is also possible.
Seana-uncail: PÓF shows the fact the prefix is usually seana-.
Tigh: house. This is given in the dative context here, but is also nominative in Munster Irish, as it will be on p15.
Ab ainm dó: the dó should be pronounced /do/ with a short vowel. I would write "do".
Dom': PÓF uses an apostrophe to show that "do mo" is "dom" in the dialect.
sin-sheanathair: great-grandfather. FGB has sin-seanathair without lenition of the second element. PUL (Peadar Ua Laoghaire) has sean-seanathair in his Bible manuscripts.
Bhí'os agam: I knew = bhí a fhios agam.
Ansan: = ansin.
Ag baint le: to do with.
Tábhachtach: important. Pronounced táchtach.
An-mhór le: very close to (his uncle). This should be ana-mhór (pronounced ana-mhuar).
Go dtugtaí: pronounced go dtugtí.
Sin é anois agaibh é: maybe "there you have it"? Anois as far as I know has a slender n.
Ní Mhuircheartaigh: I believe this can be pronounced Ní Vruiheartaig.
Níl faic: there is nothing = níl pioc.
Fothrach: ruin, ruins. Looking at FGB maybe the singular can be used when the English has "ruins".
Trealamh: equipment, gear.
Na talún: of the land. This is shown here as a variant feminine genitive of talamh, but Muskerry sources show that "talúin" with a slender n and masculine was found there in the genitive.
i lúib na fine: literally in the loop of the family group. Lúib is the dative of lúb. Teacht le chéile i lúib na fine trí chleamhas seems to mean to become related to each other through marriage.
Maireachtaint: living = maireachtáil.
In uachtar na hÉireann: in the north.
N'fheadar: I don't know = ní fheadar.
Is dóigh liom: I think, I expect, probably. The gh is not pronounced and I would write is dó' liom.
Deartháir: this should be driotháir, brother.
Gabháilt de mhóin: Gabháilt is a form of gabháil. Gabháil de mhóin - dealing with turf?
Dúirt: this should be duairt. He said.
Comharsain: neighbours = comharsana in FGB.
Tigh dhá libhéal: a two-storey house.


Epenthetics: athrú (atharú), cúpla (cúpala), fothrach (fotharach), ainmhithe (ainimhithe), aistrigh (aistirigh).


Last edited by djwebb2021 on Thu 12 Dec 2024 1:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 7:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 02 Nov 2023 11:42 pm
Posts: 223
Location: Denver, Colorado
In CDh It's pronounced me when the object (or in copular phrases) and when the subject.

Eanáir is also pronounced as Eanair, as far as I'm aware.

Does amhránaíochta really have an epenthetic vowel? I was under the impression that (-)amh- was always pronounced as a diphthong ~ long vowel (i.e. /au ~ o:/) when preceding a consonant. I would assume that athraíodar would be pronounced as arthaíodar, as Diarmuid Ó Sé discusses; the only word similar to this that I have heard pronounced with an epenthetic vowel (at least in CDh) is aithne (i.e. aithine, not *ainthe).

_________________
I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
p15
Roimhe sin: before that. Roimis sin is also found.
Spré: dowry.
Pé pingin a bhí tuillte aici: whatever money she had earned. Tuillte is pronunced tuíllte with a long vowel.
Spéirbhean: fair lady.
Ag siúl an cásan: I don't understand this. What is cásan?
Go dtí an dtigh: I think in Kerry, go dtí can take the dative, and so we have eclipsis here.
Mí meala: honeymoon.
Timpeall: around. This is pronunced tímpall, with a slender m and a broad p.
Tabhairt timpeall +G:to take around, give someone the tour or circuit of.
Go dtaispeáinfí: at least in Cork, this is go dtispeáinfí or even go dtiseáinfí.
Tríocha: is this standardisation. I'm familiar with triochaid.
Gort na Steipe: the Field of the Step.
An Trasnaigh: maybe this means Gort an Trasnaigh - the crosswise field? I think this should be treasnaigh with a slender tr.
An Gort Mheánaigh: the middle field, but it's unclear to me why it is not An Gort Meánach.
Ar dheis arís: further to the right.
Gort an Chlocháin: the Field of the Stony Ground.
Iothlainn: haggard. I think this is some kind of barn. This was iothla in older Irish, with iothlainn in the dative.
Áit a mbíodh: a place where there were. Standardisation from áit go mbíodh?
Coca féir: cock of hay.
Cruach: stack or pile.
Tigh na mba: the cowshed. In older Irish: tigh na mbó.
Lochta: loft.
Tarna: = dara, second.

Epenthetics: acra (acara), iothlainn (iothalainn)


Last edited by djwebb2021 on Wed 11 Dec 2024 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 7:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Séamus O'Neill wrote:
In CDh It's pronounced me when the object (or in copular phrases) and when the subject.

Eanáir is also pronounced as Eanair, as far as I'm aware.

Does amhránaíochta really have an epenthetic vowel? I was under the impression that (-)amh- was always pronounced as a diphthong ~ long vowel (i.e. /au ~ o:/) when preceding a consonant. I would assume that athraíodar would be pronounced as arthaíodar, as Diarmuid Ó Sé discusses; the only word similar to this that I have heard pronounced with an epenthetic vowel (at least in CDh) is aithne (i.e. aithine, not *ainthe).


Amhránaíocht has an epenthetic if you pronounce the v. But not if you don't This and athraíodar may be pronounced differently in Kerry from what I know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 7:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Maybe there is a typo for "ag siúl an cosán" - walking the path?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 8:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1835
djwebb2021 wrote:
Mám: mountain pass. It is f (feminine) in FGB (Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla), but "an Mám" in the book title shows it is masculine in the dialect.


FGB has f. and m. in different meanings:
mountain pass is mám m. in FGB, too.
mám f. = yoke and handful


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 8:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Thank you, Labhrás.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec 2024 2:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
p16
b'in é: That was. This is the correct spelling of what is sometimes b'shin é.
seomra go mbíodh na haon ní ag tarlú: I'm not sure of PÓF's spelling system here. I think it means: seómra go mbíodh nach aon ní ag tarlú. Nach aon = gach aon, and the ch may be /x/ or /h/.
Seomra na beatha: living room.
Seomra na beatha a cheart a thabhairt air: Can someone advise on the grammar? A cheart? Seomra na beatha is cirte a thabhairt air?
Níochán: washing, laundry.
Smacht: discipline of the children?
Bligeárdaíocht: playing the blackguard? Hmm. What does this mean actually? Getting up to no good?
Gaíon: clayey mortar. Is this the right interpretation of úrlár gaín?
Cuirtín: curtain. I think it can be cruitín.
Tairrigthe: pulled, drawn. Pronounced tairrici.
Trasna: across. This is treasna.
As an tslí: As an slí.
Sin é an áit a chaithimís na bróga as an tslí: this should be go gcaithimís. This probably means a place where people would take their shoes off and put them out of the way.
Bróga tairní: hobnailed boots.
Sluasaid: shovel.
Grafán: hoe.
Tógtha de chlocha: maybe, taken up with stones?
Síneáil: ceiling = síleáil.
Frathacha: rafters.
Go pras: promptly.
Siúinéireacht: carpentry. This is mis-spelt in the book.
Gan cháim: flawless.
Cubard:cupboard = cupard. I'm familiar with cupúrd.
Féidh: this possibly means fé?

Epenthetics: seomra (seomara), paidreóireacht (paidireóireacht), plastráltha (plastaráltha), dearg (dearag)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 144 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 15  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group