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PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2024 10:13 pm 
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Dia daoibh, a Chairde!

I was reading today and thought of a couple of questions regarding the progressive tense. I couldn’t seem to find an answer to this in my books or online.

1. Of the two formats, is one generally preferred over the other when there’s an object?…
Bí + subject + ag + VN + object. ( Tá sí ag druidim an dorais. )
Or…
Bí + object + á + VN + ag + subject. ( Tá an doras á druidim aici.)

2. Does dntls before dts come into play when the object of a VN needs to be lenited and used as a functional genitive in order to avoid a double genitive?
Example: Tá sí ag oscailt dhoras an chairr.
Or would “doras” be considered an object with a further attribute (an chairr), thereby making the genitive (whether actual or functional) unnecessary? I know that would be the case is “doras” were indefinite (which it kind of is in that an article doesn’t precede it…but it kind of isn’t because there’s an understood definite article, but it isn’t technically there since there can only be one “the” (the second one) in a phrase like “(the) door of the car” )

Ag gabháil buíochais leat roimh ré,
Rosie


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2024 2:09 am 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1599
Rosie_Oleary wrote:
Dia daoibh, a Chairde!

I was reading today and thought of a couple of questions regarding the progressive tense. I couldn’t seem to find an answer to this in my books or online.

1. Of the two formats, is one generally preferred over the other when there’s an object?…
Bí + subject + ag + VN + object. ( Tá sí ag druidim an dorais. )
Or…
Bí + object + á + VN + ag + subject. ( Tá an doras á druidim aici.)

2. Does dntls before dts come into play when the object of a VN needs to be lenited and used as a functional genitive in order to avoid a double genitive?
Example: Tá sí ag oscailt dhoras an chairr.
Or would “doras” be considered an object with a further attribute (an chairr), thereby making the genitive (whether actual or functional) unnecessary? I know that would be the case is “doras” were indefinite (which it kind of is in that an article doesn’t precede it…but it kind of isn’t because there’s an understood definite article, but it isn’t technically there since there can only be one “the” (the second one) in a phrase like “(the) door of the car” )

Ag gabháil buíochais leat roimh ré,
Rosie


1. I prefer to skirt round the issue of the genitive by using Bí + object + á + VN + ag + subject. However, I'm not sure your terminology is right. Which is the subject and which is the object? Isn't it rather Bí + subject + á + VN + ag + agent? But in any case, this gets into word definitions. Tá an doras á druidim aici: it should be á dhruidim (or á dhridim or á dhridiúint).

2. The genitive is receding and so is lenition in the language. Peadar Ua Laoghaire had "ag oscailt bhoscaí" in one passage, but "ag oscail dóirse agus fuinneóga an teampaill". As you say, the dental word boundary comes into play and often delenites.


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2024 2:26 am 
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Joined: Fri 22 Jan 2021 4:24 pm
Posts: 141
Thank you for your help, djwebb2021!

This helped me to see things more clearly.
And you’re absolutely right of course about how technically the “object” was actually the subject in that example. And the “subject” was the agent. :good:

And good catch that it’s “dhruidim” instead of “druidim,” since doras is a masculine noun.

:clap:

Once again, thank you!


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2024 11:56 am 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1885
Rosie_Oleary wrote:
Dia daoibh, a Chairde!

I was reading today and thought of a couple of questions regarding the progressive tense. I couldn’t seem to find an answer to this in my books or online.

1. Of the two formats, is one generally preferred over the other when there’s an object?…
Bí + subject + ag + VN + object. ( Tá sí ag druidim an dorais. )
Or…
Bí + object + á + VN + ag + subject. ( Tá an doras á druidim aici.)


The first is active voice, the second is passive voice.
In passive voice, the object becomes the subject. The original subject vanishes totally or becomes the agent: aici = by her.
Tá an doras á dhruidim aici. = The door is being closed by her.

In Ulster Irish ("druidim") the active construction is much preferred (as it is generally in Irish) except, of course, you want to or need to use passive voice.
But in Munster Irish, the passive is generally preferred in some instances, e.g. questions: Cad tá á dhúnadh aici? (active: Cad tá sí a dhúnadh? or perhaps in Ulster: Goidé ’tá sí a dhruidim?)

(ag changes to a in direct relative clauses with the object being the antecedent, here "cad")

Quote:
2. Does dntls before dts come into play when the object of a VN needs to be lenited and used as a functional genitive in order to avoid a double genitive?
Example: Tá sí ag oscailt dhoras an chairr.
Or would “doras” be considered an object with a further attribute (an chairr), thereby making the genitive (whether actual or functional) unnecessary? I know that would be the case is “doras” were indefinite (which it kind of is in that an article doesn’t precede it…but it kind of isn’t because there’s an understood definite article, but it isn’t technically there since there can only be one “the” (the second one) in a phrase like “(the) door of the car” )


At least in Standard Irish, dntls rule occurs in special circumstances only, not generally.
(attributive genitives - actual or functional - aren’t such circumstances - as well as attributive adjectives)
In dialects this may differ.
So, for Standard Irish, it should be "ag oscailt dhoras an chairr"

Searching in The New Corpus for Ireland you’ll find two examples of "ag oscailt d(h)oras" (doras being definite) by native speakers: one with, one without lenition:

Turas pianmhar na croise a dúirt mé liom féin, ag oscailt dhoras an tí dom. (Micheál Ó Conghaile, Galway)
D'umhlaigh sé go béasach agus é ag oscailt doras an tseomra dom agus isteach liom i mo sheomra codlata. (Seán Ó Cuirrín, Waterford)

(searching for all speakers: 3 "ag oscailt doras", 6 "ag oscailt dhoras")


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec 2024 4:30 am 
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Joined: Fri 22 Jan 2021 4:24 pm
Posts: 141
Ah! Go raibh míle MÍLE maith agat, a Labhrás!

Your answer was of great help to me as always!

:clap: :clap: :clap:


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