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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 12:27 am 
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I just came across this phrase in A Thig Ná Tit Orm which made me a bit confused:

Quote:
Mar ar éirí ón dtalamh dhó tharraing sé poc lena cheann isteach sa ghoile orm agus chuir sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma síos sa díog mé


I would translate this as 'he stretched me out on my spine down in the ditch'. I think this translation is fairly good, but there's still some things that I don't understand. Firstly, why is it chuir sínte ... with an omitted third person pronoun? I remember hearing in a video by dazpatreg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVT8-FOTFE0&t=316s around 6 minutes and 25 seconds in), a fluent speaker of (Mayo) Irish with a great knowledge of dialects that he also observed this, but I would love if someone with some knowledge in Munster Irish could say something about it, particularly if there's any specific instance in which it is omitted. Secondly, how is sínte being used here? It seems like the past participle of sín, but that doesn't appear to match the context in which it is given (i.e. not as an adjective), but maybe there's a different structure being used here that I'm not used to (e.g. form of cuir (+ subject) + adjective + ar + object). Thanks a lot in advance!

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 9:56 am 
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Séamus O'Neill wrote:
I just came across this phrase in A Thig Ná Tit Orm which made me a bit confused:

Quote:
Mar ar éirí ón dtalamh dhó tharraing sé poc lena cheann isteach sa ghoile orm agus chuir sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma síos sa díog mé


I would translate this as 'he stretched me out on my spine down in the ditch'. I think this translation is fairly good, but there's still some things that I don't understand. Firstly, why is it chuir sínte ... with an omitted third person pronoun? I remember hearing in a video by dazpatreg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVT8-FOTFE0&t=316s around 6 minutes and 25 seconds in), a fluent speaker of (Mayo) Irish with a great knowledge of dialects that he also observed this, but I would love if someone with some knowledge in Munster Irish could say something about it, particularly if there's any specific instance in which it is omitted. Secondly, how is sínte being used here? It seems like the past participle of sín, but that doesn't appear to match the context in which it is given (i.e. not as an adjective), but maybe there's a different structure being used here that I'm not used to (e.g. form of cuir (+ subject) + adjective + ar + object). Thanks a lot in advance!


The more correct translation is: … and he put/laid me stretched out on my spine down in the ditch
(the main verb is cuir = put)

1) tharraing sé … agus chuir (sé) …

There is no need to repeat the subject (sé) in a series of consecutive actions.

2) sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma … mé

= me (being / having been) stretched on the flat of my back

It is an adjective here. The phrase is a small clause (a phrase with the verb bí understood)
He could have used "(chuir sé síos sa díog mé) agus mé sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma", as well.
Or more complete: chuir sé síos sa díog mé agus bhí mé sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma.

In the way he used it:
The pronominal object of the sentence (mé) comes at the end of the sentence, the rest of the phrase remains in the original position of the object:

tharraing sé … agus chuir (sé) [mé sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma] síos sa díog.
->
tharraing sé … agus chuir sínte ar fhleasc mo dhroma síos sa díog mé.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 2:50 pm 
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Thank you. This makes a lot more sense now. This might be somewhat of a dumb question, but does this work for other tenses and persons? So far I have only seen it used in the preterit and past habitual, and with the third person masculine pronoun.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 3:48 pm 
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I'm more familiar with: ar fleasc a dhroma, without leniting the f.

tharraing sé poc lena cheann isteach sa ghoile orm - what does this mean? Gave me a head-butt in the stomach? If that's not what it means, please let me know. Why is tharraing here? Is that what they say in CD? It would be tharraig in traditional Muskerry Irish. Why isn't it "thug" here? Thug sé poc lena cheann isteach sa ghoile orm?


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 5:45 pm 
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According to Diarmuid Ó Sé, words preceding ar only resist lenition in certain phrases, so ar fhleasc (mo) d(h)roma is what I would expect, at least in Corca Dhuibhne. I would translate as 'he rammed me in the stomach with his head', but I think that your translation would work too as they're both pretty similar. I wouldn't see any reason for it to be pronounced as tharraig in Corca Dhuibhne, but I could definitely see it as a possibility. I notice that the dialectal spelling used in A Thig Ná Tit Orm, at least the copy that I have, tends to reflect the grammar of the dialect more so than the pronunciation, so Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé definitely might have said tharraig instead. I think that with certain phrases like this there is some ambiguity to the actual verb used, i.e. thug sé ~ tharraing sé poc isteach sa ghoile orm. That being said, I have noticed that Maidhc has a very strong gravitation to the verb tarraing, where perhaps a different verb might be expected in the CO, here are some other examples:

Quote:
Thugamair seachtain fhada dhíreach ag tabhairt íde béil ar a chéile, ach ní raibh puinn misnigh ormsa aon bhuille dhoirn a tharraingt air mar ná feadar mise nó é siúd a bheadh thíos leis, mar chúram. [Here also we can see that he writes tharraingt, even though the pronunciation tharrac is found, as far as I know, all throughout Munster.]

Cad a dhein sé siúd chun an cath a thosnú ach pléasc a tharraingt isteach sa phus ar an mbeirt againn in éineach!

Ní raibh aon oidhre ar lán na beirte againn tar éis na bruíne ach dhá lipín mhaol bháite a bheadh tarraingthe aníos as poll portaigh. [This usage is a bit more regular/standard, as it takes the sense of 'to draw', i.e. 'two bare, drowned, dripping-wet things that would be drawn forth from the bog'.]

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Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 6:57 pm 
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It makes you wonder how tarraingthe is proposed to be pronounced. From what I know, it is tarruice.


Last edited by djwebb2021 on Sun 01 Dec 2024 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 7:01 pm 
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Gaeilge CD paragraph 522 shows the verb is tairrigím in CD, so the past tense is thairrig.

There is a refusal to ever allow any book to stand in Munster Irish - all of them are interfered with in some way. The nearest to the full thing is Seanachas Amhlaoibh, Scéalaíocht Amhlaoibh, Seanchas Í Chrualaoi, Scéal mo Bheatha, Eachtra Phinocchio and the three volumes I have published.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 7:13 pm 
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Séamus O'Neill wrote:
Thank you. This makes a lot more sense now. This might be somewhat of a dumb question, but does this work for other tenses and persons? So far I have only seen it used in the preterit and past habitual, and with the third person masculine pronoun.


I haven't seen it in other tenses or with other omitted pronouns. It occurs very regularly in Aodh de Róiste, but if I recall correctly the omitted pronoun is sé. With synthetic verbs, it could only ever be the 3ps sing as chuireadar, chuireas etc don't have the pronoun anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 7:20 pm 
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I would say that A Thig Ná Tit Orm is one of the better CD books in regards to withstanding the alterations of the CO. Many of the other books written by more popular writers such as Peig and An tOileánach are almost fully standardised (especially with Peig, e.g. compare Seanbhean is ea mise anois, bhfuil cos léi san uaigh is an chos eile ar a bruach to what it should be: Seana(-)bhean is ea mise anois, go bhfuil cos léithe insan uaigh is a' chos eile air a bruach).

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2024 7:30 pm 
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See these from An t-Oileánach (which I believe is An tLeánach in CD):

https://wikisource.org/wiki/An_t-Oile%C3%A1nach/14: ar mhuin na muice
https://wikisource.org/wiki/An_t-Oile%C3%A1nach/19: ar muin na muice

These are standardised on in the modern edition as "ar mhuin na muice", but I believe "ar muin na muice" is the only correct form in Munster Irish.


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