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PostPosted: Thu 30 May 2024 11:03 pm 
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Hello! I'm trying to figure out which version of English bibles the following Exodus verse is closest to:

Exodus 14:14
Troidfidh an Tiarna thar úr gceann agus fanfaidh sibhse ar úr suaimhneas.

A few of the words are really throwing me off...

thar- overseas, beyond endurance
úr- anything fresh or new

If anyone could give me a word for word or thought for thought translation of this verse I'd greatly appreciate it..

Thanks again! Shalom!

P.S. my library didn't have any Irish grammer books but they were able to order one from another library... it should be here soon! I can't wait!


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 1:35 am 
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msv133 wrote:
Exodus 14:14
Troidfidh an Tiarna thar úr gceann agus fanfaidh sibhse ar úr suaimhneas.

A few of the words are really throwing me off...

thar- overseas, beyond endurance
úr- anything fresh or new


Not quite. Thar is just a preposition with the meaning "over" or "above". You've misread the entry in Ó Dónaill's dictionary. What it's saying is that the phrases thar barr, thar sáile, and thar fulaingt translate to "tip-top", "overseas", and "beyond endurance" respectively. Another phrase with thar which is necessary to make sense of your translation is thar ceann, "on behalf".

As for úr, the spelling here is throwing you off. It actually represents a phonetic transcription of the possessive pronoun, bhur "your". So, thar úr gceann means "on your behalves" and ar úr suaimhneas means "at your peace".

So, the translation would be something like:

The Lord will fight on your behalves and you will rest at your peace.


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 1:10 pm 
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Thank you so much.


So, in general, is úr the cork gaelic version of bhur?


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 3:28 pm 
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msv133 wrote:
Thank you so much.


So, in general, is úr the cork gaelic version of bhur?


No. We recently had this discussed in another thread. It's a historically attested spelling variant that represents a localised Munster pronunciation without the initial bh. It seems likely to me that this pronunciation is still in use, though it seems that most native speakers in Munster tend to both write and pronounce bhur these days.

In that other thread djwebb posited that bhur may have been adopted by native speakers in speech as a result of the use of standardised spelling in the school system. I suspect the implication is that only úr would have been used in speech and writing before that point. I'm not convinced by this suggestion, though. It seems unlikely that an entire province would give way to standard spelling and pronunciation in this isolated case, while strongly maintaining other Munster variants. It seems more plausible to me that both úr and bhur were in use historically, and úr has since become less common (perhaps under pressure from the standard, but not as a direct result of it). Unfortunately, without more historical recordings of spoken Irish from about a century ago, it's not easy to be sure. Sources may survive from that time in which bhur is written, but this doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't being pronounced úr by Munster speakers.


Last edited by Ade on Fri 31 May 2024 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 3:45 pm 
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It is u:r throughout in "Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne" le Diarmuid Ó Sé.


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 7:23 pm 
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Saying Ade is not convinced is not a convincing argument. Do we have to convince Ade who had produced no evidence from reputable sources like Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne. I'm reading a book called An Chonair Chaoch, with an article by Professor Brian Ó Curnáin in, called An Ghaeilge Iarthraidisíúnta agus an Phragmataic Chódmheascaithe Thiar agus Theas, in which he sets out the development of Traditional Irish>Post Traditional Irish>Weak Irish (Gaeilge Laghdaithe, however you translate that). He focuses on Conamara and Corca Dhuibhne, showing that Post Traditional Irish is the norm among speakers born after the 1960s, and Weak Irish the norm among speakers born after the 1990s. He is talking about Gaeltacht native speakers. There is a continuum there, with more and more non-traditional forms creeping in from the 1960s and then a flood of them from the 1990s. Vúr is just incorrect.


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 8:52 pm 
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p319 of Ó Curnáin's article has a list of changes from traditional Irish found among speakers of various ages in Corca Dhuibhne. Bhúr instead of úr is noted as first becoming prominent among speakers born in the age bracket 1975-1979. This age group is also noted for using the English r, for stressing possessive like ár (which traditionally were never stressed - the noun should take the stress), pronouncing bhíomar with a broad r in line with the spelling instead of bhíomair, saying chuir mé instead of chuireas, pronouncing tuigfidh as tuigidh, and táim as tám, leniting and eclipsing less, saying faoi instead of fé.


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 10:38 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Saying Ade is not convinced is not a convincing argument. Do we have to convince Ade who had produced no evidence from reputable sources like Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne. I'm reading a book called An Chonair Chaoch, with an article by Professor Brian Ó Curnáin in, called An Ghaeilge Iarthraidisíúnta agus an Phragmataic Chódmheascaithe Thiar agus Theas, in which he sets out the development of Traditional Irish>Post Traditional Irish>Weak Irish (Gaeilge Laghdaithe, however you translate that). He focuses on Conamara and Corca Dhuibhne, showing that Post Traditional Irish is the norm among speakers born after the 1960s, and Weak Irish the norm among speakers born after the 1990s. He is talking about Gaeltacht native speakers. There is a continuum there, with more and more non-traditional forms creeping in from the 1960s and then a flood of them from the 1990s. Vúr is just incorrect.


When you're the one who grew up in Cork, and learned your Irish from Cork Irish speakers, I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, I'll expect you to actually do your homework if you want to convince me of anything to do with the Irish spoken in Cork. As for bhúr specifically, it is very much correct, and the fact that you don't like that native speakers use it doesn't change that.


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 10:59 pm 
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Ade wrote:
When you're the one who grew up in Cork, and learned your Irish from Cork Irish speakers, I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, I'll expect you to actually do your homework if you want to convince me of anything to do with the Irish spoken in Cork. As for bhúr specifically, it is very much correct, and the fact that you don't like that native speakers use it doesn't change that.

Clearly it hurts you to be proved wrong!!


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PostPosted: Fri 31 May 2024 11:03 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Ade wrote:
When you're the one who grew up in Cork, and learned your Irish from Cork Irish speakers, I'll be interested in your opinions. Until then, I'll expect you to actually do your homework if you want to convince me of anything to do with the Irish spoken in Cork. As for bhúr specifically, it is very much correct, and the fact that you don't like that native speakers use it doesn't change that.

Clearly it hurts you to be proved wrong!!


Not at all. This just happens to be the first proof you've supplied on the matter. And, it doesn't change the fact that if native speakers are using bhur, then you're hardly in a position to call it incorrect.


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