It is currently Sun 06 Oct 2024 3:50 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Fri 24 May 2024 2:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue 07 May 2024 3:50 pm
Posts: 90
Hello yall! The suffix -idh and -fidh confuses me.

I have seen it said that the suffix -idh can be pronounced \ee\

I have also seen it said that dh is \y\ when slender and \g\ when broad, thus -idh should make a \y\ sound.

However, I have then seen, for example cruinneóidh where this is pronounced \krin-gy-ohg\. I have written in my notes that -idh is a "palatized g", whatever that means lol.

On the reading of future tense irregular verbs here: http://www.nualeargais.ie/foghlaim/irre ... hp?teanga=

the -idh is always \ee\ and -fidh seems to be \hee\. I like this consistency. However, the f making an \h\ sound is strange, I don't think i've seen that mentioned anywhere else.

I realize Irish has different dialects, and perhaps all these options are okay under certain circumstances, but I just wanted to post this here to see if I could get some insights from anybody.

Any feedback helps! I appreciate y'all so much!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Fri 24 May 2024 3:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1273
You have to learn properly by going systematically through a book.

-idh is usually a palatalised g, but is often just nothing. Glanfaidh - will clean - is glanhig, but glanfaidh sé - he will clean - is glanhi shay. The g is omitted before pronouns.

It is not the correct approach to dip into every tense that you have not learnt. You need to learn properly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Fri 24 May 2024 3:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue 07 May 2024 3:50 pm
Posts: 90
Alright fine, I'll do it lol. But under one condition: You send me a pdf of the grammar book you would recommend most.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Tue 30 Jul 2024 3:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue 30 Jul 2024 3:53 am
Posts: 1
msv133 wrote:
Hello yall! The suffix -idh and -fidh confuses me.

I have seen it said that the suffix -idh can be pronounced \ee\

I have also seen it said that dh is \y\ when slender and \g\ when broad, thus -idh should make a \y\ sound.

However, I have then seen, for example cruinneóidh where this is pronounced \krin-gy-ohg\. I have written in my notes that -idh is a "palatized g", whatever that means lol.

On the reading of future tense irregular verbs here: http://www.nualeargais.ie/foghlaim/irre ... hp?teanga= slope

the -idh is always \ee\ and -fidh seems to be \hee\. I like this consistency. However, the f making an \h\ sound is strange, I don't think i've seen that mentioned anywhere else.

I realize Irish has different dialects, and perhaps all these options are okay under certain circumstances, but I just wanted to post this here to see if I could get some insights from anybody.

Any feedback helps! I appreciate y'all so much!

Connacht and Ulster:

-idh: Often pronounced \ee.
-fidh: Often pronounced \hee.
Munster:

-idh: Can be pronounced with a palatalized \g\ sound, resulting in \y\ or \gy\ sounds.
-fidh: The f can be pronounced as \h, leading to \hee.
These variations are due to the rich diversity of Irish dialects, and it's normal to encounter different pronunciations. It's important to consider the context and the specific dialect when learning Irish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Thu 01 Aug 2024 9:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 25 Feb 2023 1:24 pm
Posts: 39
amorapotter wrote:
Connacht and Ulster:
-idh: Often pronounced \ee.
-fidh: Often pronounced \hee.

I don't think it's true to say this is the case for all of Connacht, but it's probably the case in Mayo - especially getting more northerly.
In coastal Galway I think the idh/igh is a schwa sound, this is the grunty sound we make in English, like the 'a' sound in "I'm gonna" when you say that phrase quickly.
Irish actually has two grunty sounds, one for broad and slender. The slender sound is still grunty but closer to an 'i' sound, this is why djwebb wrote 'glanfaidh sé' phonetically as 'glanhi shay', whereas you'd often hear 'glanfaidh tú' phonetically as 'glanhuh tuh'.

There's a great reference for your question in this section on braesicke.de. It's in German, but if you're using Google Chrome (and probably other browsers) you can translate it directly from the browser. As grammar guides on Irish go, this website is the most complete and is an excellent reference.

msv133 wrote:
I have also seen it said that dh is \y\ when slender and \g\ when broad, thus -idh should make a \y\ sound.

Letter combinations make different sounds depending on whether they're at the start, middle or end of the word, and they also can vary by region.
Initial slender 'dh' is \y\ but initial broad 'dh' is not \g\, it's a much throatier sound.

msv133 wrote:
I have written in my notes that -idh is a "palatized g", whatever that means lol.

It's similar to an English g, except you pronounce it further forward in your mouth. Similarly a broad g is pronounced further back in your throat.
Whatever book you're reading will probably explain broad (velarised)/slender (palatised) as a spelling rule, but these sounds are produced differently to the English sounds.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Thu 01 Aug 2024 11:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1273
While it is true that the slender k and g are further forward than the English sounds, nevertheless the English k, g and ng are more palatalised than velarised. The k and ng in "king" are both slender in most English speakers' pronunciations: /kʲʰɪŋʲ/ (palatalisation is not phonemic in English, so the word wouldn't mean anything different if not pronounced like this, but all consonants in English have to be somewhere on the patalal/velar continuum).

The problem is the broad gutturals. E.g. cuin, "dogs" (=cúnna in the CO) should have a broad k, but is hard to pronounce for English speakers. I suspect most learners say cin , which is a different word.

Gaelainn - should have a broad g. I suspect most learners say Géalainn, with a slender g.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug 2024 7:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat 25 Feb 2023 1:24 pm
Posts: 39
djwebb2021 wrote:
Gaelainn - should have a broad g. I suspect most learners say Géalainn, with a slender g.

At least for Irish school children (and most teachers), you hear Gaeilge pronounced as gwaylguh with English phonetics, so as to your point - yes, the g would be rendered slightly slender as per English phonetics.
Furthermore, I think most learners recognise the glide sound and reproduce it exclusively as an English w instead of a velar offglide.
Similarly most learners differentiate bó and beo only by inserting an English w after the b, even though the b is formed differently and the ó is more retracted in bó.

djwebb2021 wrote:
I suspect most learners say cin

For 'cuin' I'm very confident they'd pronounce it as kwin with an English c and w sound.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug 2024 10:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1273
beepbopboop wrote:
For 'cuin' I'm very confident they'd pronounce it as kwin with an English c and w sound.

OK, that's not right either, of course.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Mon 05 Aug 2024 9:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1273
Does anyone has anything else to say to help the OP here? An bhfuil aon duine eile anso gur mhaith leis cuidiu leis an mbunphostálaí sa tsnáithe seo?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: -idh confuses me
PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2024 1:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed 25 Sep 2024 1:13 am
Posts: 1
I should let fnf help you with this problem


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 28 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group